Blind's idea about alien comm is good too imo. I never thought an active alien comm was a bad thing and it means you can again increase the RT cost and whip/crag because there's an extra field player.
Will someone actually discuss increasing marine RT build time though??
Increase marine build time. Increases RT biting efficacy. Reduces marine pressure. Can increase RT cost and whip/crag cost. Decreases Whip/Crag spamage. If you choose to go whip/crag, then you trade that with later alien upgrades / slower expansion.
Marine RT build time restored to current time with welder. Allows fast armory + build strat (Perhaps, i doubt it though, but it doesnt rly matter). Increases pressure speed (although keeps it the same as now), but less effective pressure because less upgrades / slight shotgun pres sink. No armory = slower cap, slower pressure, easier alien defence, increase cost whip/crag, more PvP, less PvE.
Please, someone discuss this.
Dragon, the mod has been around 1 - 2 months and there haven't been enough games and thinking put into the changes whilst they're still happening. That is a major concern I posted about, and that's why I'm posting NOW and not earlier.
You don't need to play a game to see the changes go in a different direction than what you think for the game - just like Blinds post. Looking at the changelog from the mod I know instantly that its not restoring/promoting alien comm field play. Playing games on it will reveal what changes are too strong/weak, not which changes take gameplay in the wrong direction. There are exceptions to this, but they are generally pretty rare and are usually a result of something being overly effective.
It's almost impossible to win summit as alien against a equal skill team due to the map being so small and rotations being so quick. You can win almost every alien engagement and still feel under the pump to a certain extent. Increasing RT build time will help solve this.
Current changes are fine, Like any game it's good to get a variety of indepth changes to keep the game fresh. as long as one change is proven to be overpowered than it's fine.
This. Or maps need to be adjusted so vent/ maintenance / sub tech point / comp lab/ flight control / atrium / reactor core / cross aren't skulk shooting ranges and you don't need to massively over commit. BUUUUUUUT I'd prefer we changed the game than alllllll maps with some long corridors
I don't like the idea of increasing RT build time. It is fine as it is imo. Having to build power node + RT at start is already annoying enough, no need to make it longer. Marine pressure is already delayed by killing RTs, and I don't feel that it needs to be longer. Also depending on the number, it might just be negligible or gonna snowball through the game. You could increase the powernode blue print build time, so it would give some more time to the aliens to set up before/between the first/second maybe third pressure but not have a great impact after the early game. But again I think increased build time shouldn't be a way to fix things, no matter how elegant it might look.
Or you could go with the good old no alien comm, wich would magically fix the game. But since it's not gonna happen, virtually removing it ala before the no pres at start and no pres for 60s when entering the CC/hive, so the designated comm could be on the field is the next best thing. It would help the aliens breath a bit between the 'ping/pong' defending, allowing a bit more alien presence on the map, being useful overall... via a PLAYER controlled unit! It would actively promotes PvP via more engagements and/or more aliens per engagements, and passively reduce PvE because the comm wouldn't be 24/7 touching himself in the Hive having nothing else to do but micro things around. 2 birds in 1 stone, towards the less PvE shit. Some things would probably have to be changed/be tweaked around it. Like maybe get tres eggdrop back, or decrease the build time of buildings without drifters, or I dunno. But I think this would be a good step in the right direction.
Also I don't think you should focus on things like babblers. Just get ride of it. I'm actually kind of stunned you actually went throught a thought process to do something with it while you were aiming at a competitive mod. Like seriously who wants them in the game? I don't really see the point of trying to make them viable, except for the sake of it. Considering vanilla hasn't been made with 6v6 comp in mind, trying to make relevant everything that is in the game just because it's in the game is a bad idea. Starting with Alien comm and pres marines lolol.
The thing is, with the return of an alien comm with p-res, you'd likely see them gorge (since this was the most common case previously, when they did have p-res) - leading to an increase in PvE and/or making defender's advantage even stronger. I don't think that's the right answer either...
Increased RT build time does seem like an interesting idea, it currently takes 1 marine 12 seconds to build a marine RT, and 8 seconds to build a powernode - for 20 seconds total if you're single capping. If you were to say, increase the RT build time to 16 seconds, it would make recapping less trivial.
No, it only leads to more PvE if you keep supporting it by the balance mod. If it is possible to have 6 full time alien field players with from time to time have someone jump in to get upgrades or drop a structure, I don't see why the old khamm must be a gorge then. It was in earlier builds that the alien comm instantly built the second hive when the game meta was always focusing around it, just watch one of old Scrajm's POV videos on his YT channel to get the memories back.
Anyways, your answer tells me that you didn't quite understand my intention of previous posts. I mean that IF you decide to have the goal 6 alien field players again, you THEN can balance the mod in a way where it doesn't necessarily promotes old khamm as gorge with more PvE. Let's say - as an easy example just to get the idea - by remove drifters and make crags/whips cost 20 tres each. You then have basically one more fighting lifeform on the field, which helps aliens out ALOT.
The question left over is, do we want a perma alien comm in hive or 6 alien players on the field? Before this isn't decided, any balance change around it feels random. This of course requires the motivation to change the game in a bigger way, but as far as I understood from earlier campfire chats, this is what you intented to do.
I think it's worth consideration. But it would have a big impact on the game. I think it will mean more TRES for the alien team, since they'll be able to hold likely an extra extractor in various points in the game. Means faster life forms as well (maybe return pres to normal?), and if that TRES doesn't have anything to be invested in, you're right - we will see more PvE.
At the same time, it would be super annoying as this new gorge comm to keep up with upgrading biomass and life form upgrades, since there are so many, and there'd be constant need to return to the hive and click it.
So yea, that's a deep route to go if we do. It would mean quite a lot changes.
Vision. What is it? Cause it certainly feels like "We think this mechanic is cool, lets try and balance it so it's not OP but useful" but to what end?? No vision no true understanding of OP or not.
Uhh is that not what she just said?? Before this gets derailed any worse, why don't you just stick to discussing the merits of a change like promoting alien comm field play... The only way for balance changes to be made around a modified vision for the game is to actually have that vision, and when you have 0 community input its pretty hard to determine WHAT people want.
Shall I start a poll for you? Asking whether ppl want 6 alien players more on the field or a sitting duck in the hive.
But of course, a poll isn't actually representative. I know that Zefram did alot of community asking (approaching captains), how would you want that be handled? If you need a News post, topic or poll, let me know. Let's get community input. But I don't even know up to this point if you want to debate that possibility even since so far I have no where read any statement from you about your vision of alien gameplay.
If we want to get community input, we should get some prepared visions out there to discuss, right? You know mine and king_yo's from the few people reading this forum, but I'd like your input (rant/dragon/grissi) on your vision as well - since you were entrusted with this baby (and btw, did a great job so far) :D
Speaking as a commander who gets out of the hive a lot to defend, I do not want 6 field alien to be the standard. Some teams also do not have commanders that can compete on the field either due to skill or hardware and forcing them to change for arbitrary reasons is silly.
After reading through the comments, I'm not entirely sure why such a radical change is being discussed. Reverting to this would cause more issues than it solves.
Wob's vision. (Not 100% thought out or balanced but more particular in vision)
Less PvE. More skill Less frustration. Change SG ball. Let skulks scale better late game. Let marines have more pres sink. Let marines tech more stuff, cheaper/quicker (keep weps and armor expensive)
Aliens Crags used as forward healing positions to assault a PG / Help gain a tech point. Crags not spammed.
Shifts used for helping defend extreme pressure on important locations (4man hive push, high arc intensity fight)
Shades used for concealing advanced positions, ARC counter.
Whips used minimally to help prevent extreme pressure on important locations (4man shell rush). Whips not spammed.
Drifters. Better AI control. Can influence important fights, not every fight. Expensive abilities.
Commander pres return. No pres penalty for entering chair. More commander on field for PvP. 2 Marines can cope with more skulks so having more skulks on field is ok.
Skulks scale better with biomass to help vs shotguns. Skulks buttjumping (or some skilled movement, less spacebar EZ mode spam) Lerk umbra crop duster. (Lerk more intense and risky) Lerk spores less visually obscure for marines. (Lerk less frustrating) Fade 2-3-3-4 swipes (A0, A1, A2, A3) (Fade better killing power vs strong weapons, SG,EXO) Fade 3-4-4-5 swipes (A0, A1, A2, A3; +1 medpack) Fade has skillful, useful 2nd ability. (Metabolise 2 EZ, something 4 aim or difficult to use, nerf swipe dmg if theres a good idea)
NO XENOCIDE. (Maybe 3rd hive sprint ability like BTmod had early days but extremely energy draining) NO BILE RUSH SUICIDE SPAM. (SUICIDE IS BORING AND FRUSTRATING)
Marines Pulse nades skill and useful. Gas nades, clusters boring and lame AoE Random no skill 100pres cost.
Slower early game pressure to give alien some establishment.
SG pres sink (welders 5pres) SG available later in game. (Around 2-1, 2-2)
Exos available earlier. (Around 2-1 upgrades) Exos less expensive. (Around 20pres) Exos not affected by beacon OR, exos can use pgs. Exos quicker movement. Exos more vulnerable. Exos slightly less PEW PEW. Exos have welder in 2nd hand.
No dual exo.
Jetpacks available earlier (Around 1-1, 2-1 upgrades) Jetpacks less expensive. (Around 8-10 pres) Jetpacks slightly slower (Particularly vertical speed)
It doesn't prevent you from staying in the hive if you want. I don't remember Jaivol getting out much before the patch. But at least you had a reasonable choice. Now imo the patch forced the alien comm to stay in the hive for arbitrary reasons, not the other way around.
As much as I know some people have 20fps, should we really balance the game around that?
I am discussing this radical change because I think the alien comm is a radical flaw in the game. It is the source of a lot of things that makes the game not as much enjoyable as it could be, and the source of most of the major flaws that UWE have been trying to fix, and the ones the comp mod is now trying to fix too. Reverting to this would cause more issues than it solves if it is done badly, but done well I think it would promote PvP and reduce PvE, as I said earlier.
I think these are pretty good ideas and most people would agree with most of them.
But here's the stickler: How?
Just to pick out one example; How, specifically, do you balance crags so they're useful, but not spammed? Do you just crank up the tres cost to 20? Then you'll never see one because it's so easily killed for such a huge res investment. You'll also never see one when the aliens are losing. Should crags be worth half of a hive?
How do you quantify things like "more skill" and "less frustration"? These are extremely subjective measures. One person may think a field commander is "more skill" and another may think a hive commander is "more skill."
How, exactly, would you "slow early game res pressure"? This is a rhetorical question because I know you want to increase marine build time on RTs. King_yo explicitly stated he doesn't want that. Extrapolate that out to the rest of the community and now who do we decide between? Do we democratize it (public poll on every change)? Do we operate as a representative republic (grissi, rantology, dragon, plus input from captains and lobbying by the community)? How exactly do we rationalize all of these viewpoints which are certainly going to clash with every decision?
The balance team's hands are truly tied by this problem. It doesn't matter if they write a 15 page document detailing their view and the entire community signs off on it. The first change they make will have half of the community come out and say "we didn't want this, this wasn't what we thought it was going to be like."
Right now, the balance team basically changes things they think would be good and the changes are effectively vetoed if enough people post and complain about it. It's hard to imagine a fairer system without empowering some people with absolute authority over the rest of us. I do not think we want that. Unfortunately, our current system will only lead to minor fixes to non-controversial topics. Controversial topics (like alien commander, or "more-skill" debates) will inevitably lead to having to choose between two swaths of the community OR defaulting to the status quo. The status quo is the safe bet and that's why big changes can't happen.
Don't forget that the bigger the changes, the further separation we will get from vanilla, which means a further learning curve for new people to come to competitive.
Dragon wanted a vision. I posted visionary comments with a few ideas behind to back them up. How to balance them more specifically is indeed the nitty gritty job.
The reason I want to get involved and have posted a lot is because ns2 is becoming an incredibly stale game for me and a few other people I know. I don't want to write publicly that the game is dying and be all super dramatic about it, but my passion for the game is definitely dying. This is pretty much the last hoorah for me I think. Consequently, I want this balance mod to succeed. However, I have major concerns about the manner in which balance is being addressed. My concerns have been answered by asking for people in the community to post their own visions of the game.
I posted my haphazard vision of the game which is probably riddled with flaws and issues, but something has to be posted. Perhaps people can branch off their own visions or make similar and entirely separate posts.
The point is there is no vision available to what is being worked towards or it is incredibly vague. "Less PvE, less gimmick, less frustration" with no explanation of what roles you want things to fulfill. For example, less PvE but to what extent???? I said Crags in forward positions to help take down turtled PGs or assume a 2nd tech point. Is that a fair amount of PvE??? Discuss.
This statement is a little worrying for me - even if all of your suggested changes were implemented, would it really extend your interest and the interest of your peers in the game or will you play it for another week or month and get bored of it once more?
Even the most radical changes suggested here, NS2 is still going to be NS2 more or less, and while certain things get tweaked, it's more or less always going to be the same game. If you're bored of it now, I'm skeptical that the implementation of more changes would sate your appetite for what would appear to be a totally new game.
I'm not saying the stale-ness of balance and your level of interest with the game are exclusive to one another, but they cannot be too closely connected, either.
I think wobs statement goes tied in with the lack of scrimmage in prem aswell and not just the game itself. That's how I feel anyway, hoping some good changes can spark some fire for the teams.
Are my balance changes flawed because you speculate I might not play?
My vision is less PvE, more PvP. I've said it so much now. Nothing feels better than to 1v1 a fade with a shotgun in this game or to do a 1v3 with AR. "Brb killing whip" is not fun for me especially when it culminates in a reload, I wipe, and the whip gets healed up to max by the time I come back for seconds. If the fade gets healed up to max by the time I come back, it's cool.
No, I am not knocking your ideas at all. I agree with many of them - A lot of the things you suggested were things talked about in the balance team that we wanted to try and implement/ experiment with once the glaring issues from live got addressed with the current mod (we were apprehensive about including them because we were afraid the community would respond negatively to such radical changes right off the bat - it would also have made for an even bigger change log and putting so many changes in at once can make seeing whats working and whats not harder). Ideas like yours and more will probably be looked at for the next balance mod update (but this might not be for a month+, the current mod was only just released recently).
It's just that every time I see someone post that they are bored with the game, I am skeptical that any amount of changes will make them un-bored with the game. Sometimes you just get bored of games and that's that.
Somehow when i play ns2, it feels like im playing Warcraft 3 Tower Defense game cause of the whips.. Do something about them, or replace them with Hydras for the commander :D
Wob has some great ideas, how they be employed into the game is the question.
There was some previous discussion i think about putting a energy consumption back onto marine sprint. Is that something that could alleviate some of the ping pong defense game style that aliens have to play. That in itself would reduce the reliance on PvE vs top-notch marines.
I actually liked Mouse idea of "Mark" ability for fades, but adding a few changes to it and making it available on maybe biomass 2-3 and probably free or cost 10 like babblers, putting it on slot 2 for example (like para). Focusing more on a tactical upgrade instead of a BUFF and removing Advanced Metabolize, since people are concerned with heal stack and I don't really think fades needs this anyway (First metab is great and enough).
Mark
* Lasts half of the time of a skulk parasite. * Has the same effect and use as parasite. * Only the fade lifeforms can see 'Marked' marines. * Only 1 active Mark / fade.
So this adds a skill-based upgrade instead of pve/healing buffs. Basicly 1 fade 'Marks' a marine in a group and the other fades knows who to pick out from that group or see's that he has the shotgun.
Here's a (pro)photoshop example of what it could look like.
(Mouse UWE Forum post: http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/134682/new-fade-3rd-hive-ability-mark )
...but the problem still stands with the fade's scaling. If you add this Mark ability on top of the current Metab (both available at low bio levels) basically make the fade as strong as it can be right when they pop.
