IMO Hera participating wasn't fair but that remains on ref's and placeholders' conscience. Admin can't force this match to be replayed because there was not any obvious rules violation.
If placeholder confident in their championship they have a right to replay this match and make this victory fully unblemished. If not - that's ok, but NSL community will continue talks that victory wasn't fair enough.
Well i can't c any confirm in that screenshot just sarcastic responses but jeah as you said
can't understand the fuss made bout the map
for everything else: was it a bitchmove to merc Hera? That's up to anyones personal opinion
but i agree Ixian should not be CASTER AND REFEREE of the SAME match IMHO he should not be a ref at all cause he fkn mutes everyone but well not my decision and it doesnt matter if he is only one of the both for a match (same obvsly goes for everyone else; remember streaming != casting)
but jeah everyone knows how to exploit the approvemercs function of nsl mod.... just let the merc join fst maybe there should be a rule that all members of the team are to join an ingame team b4 any merc may join
requesting and denying mercs on the match page could be a possibility but only for a period of time >24h before the game (well maybe less but defenitly not 5 minutes) for anything else discussing that ingame or in ts (maybe in the referee channel together with both team captains and the referee) should be more than enough
for what crazycat said: most of the referees don't care bout this kinda crap. i applied for ref in season 9 be4 it got canceled so i read the duties of the referee document. since then im rly disappointed by most of the current "referees" when i reapplied this season cause i saw the same shit again i was told that there is already to many referees but jeah duties of a referee also include that u configure the server properly and help the teams deciding on what server to play.
Also you talk to the teams if there is any issues (like the issue of this whole thread) before the match.
Oh and pls set the server config back to PCW after the match cause its a fkn pain in the ass to approve mercs for a fkn gather
Muting out of nessesity as the stream is pg13 on UWE's conditions. People xenociding and writin "ALLAHUACHBAR" isn't to these standarts. This is a change the community forced upon me in cojunction with UWE's conditions.
I have never wanted to cast and ref at the same time, but due to no ref being around, it falls automaticly to the caster. Knox took over however, which i am thankful for. The ONLY part i had a say in before Knox took over was concerning the Bo5 format and that which follows that.
I hate casting and reffing, as a curse seems to lie on that - first time one team accused the other of cheating, forcing me and duffman to spend an hour after the match to confirm or bust it. It was busted.
It is NOT out of my free will that this dute falls upon me. I even asked several refs online to come and ref the match, to no avail.
Again, shut this thread down - Hera's involvement in the matter, and the accusation of cheating, befalls to the admins, as the rules states, which phone has neglected to adhere to, and should be punished for. 12-e if you are interested. The last one, as if the writers seemed to want to have emphasis on it, for some reason.....
And i agree - all match details should have been clear 24 hours in advance, not 5 minutes before.
The rules are terribly outdated, and it feels shitty to have a ruleset outdated, and its hard to take this entire thing seriously due to this.
"It is wisdom to recognize necessity, when all other courses have been weighed, despite as folly it may appear to those who cling to false hope" - J.R.R. Tolkien
TLDR: Don't blame Ixian, he made the best of a bad situation. The ref responsibility was Knox's. The map and merc selection processes should always be recorded. The rules need to be updated if you want people to take them seriously.
I think this problem could have been avoided, or at least made less contentious, if the match had been confirmed and announced ahead of time.
The official record is the match page (http://www.ensl.org/matches/6377), where Infamous says the match is later that day. The late post, and phone's response ("wgahaterver") could be construed as proper confirmation. It could also support phone's narrative that he was pressured into keeping the game running. More of this communication should have been recorded, and it should have happened earlier. It is the admins' job to facilitate this.
Because of the late notice, there was nobody available to ref. Ixian was casting, but it's not fair to force the caster to assume ref duties, even if he is a ref. It's very hard to ref and cast at the same time, especially on a high-profile stream and a potentially drama-filled match. Ixian tried to find a ref, but failed, and so reluctantly stepped up. If he had not stepped into the ref position, the game would have been postponed.
Ixian did not set the server configs correctly. Although technically his responsibility as ref, I think we should instead be decrying the situation that forced him to ref and cast at the same time. It is easy to overlook things like this when you are managing a stream.
Ixian went through the map selection process, giving the players the map list as written in the rules. The admins had previously removed mesh from the season, but it was unclear to Ixian whether that meant it was removed from the finals also. Obviously the rule document itself is not updated as much as it should be, which only the admins are able to do. Ixian made the decision to follow the letter of the document, which I think was an understandable decision.
(Personally I don't think it makes sense, during the match or in this discussion, to blindly follow the rules line-by-line, since they are crazy outdated in places. It's impossible to know, just by reading the document, which parts are updated and which parts remain by accident. We must rely on other knowledge, namely our previous experience playing league matches, and our ideas on how league matches should be played. Or, failing that, the admins' fiat. But the document itself is currently not enough.)
I'm unclear on the timeline. But it seems that after map selection, the merc selection began. Sadly, we have no material evidence of how this conversation went. Phone says he rejected Hera; Knox says he didn't. (Unfortunately, because of the config blunder, phone was denied the ability to withold "mercsok".) Phone says he was pressured into keeping the game running smoothly; while believable, we don't know the extent.
I don't know when Knox became part of the process. Possibly he eventually responded to Ixian's call for refs. In any case, it appears that Knox was present for merc selection. At that point, he should have officially relieved Ixian of ref duties and assumed them himself.
According to Ixian, he did not consider himself ref once Knox showed up. So I'm concerned about what I quoted from Knox above. It seems he still considered Ixian the official ref, and considered himself just smoothing the process along. If this is the case, it is even more understandable that his only goal was to get a match played, and it is believeable that he would suppress phone's objections to do so. (Without material proof, this is just speculation.)
If you believe the letter of the rule document, teams themselves have no power over accepting mercs. In practice, I think most people would disagree with this idea. In either case, it is the responsibility of the ref, and ultimately the admins, to determine whether a merc, a forfeit, or a delay is fairer for all parties. In this game, that determination was up to Knox.
For me, there is enough circumstantial evidence to conclude that the admins really wanted this match played quickly. This allows me to take phone seriously when he claims he tried to deny Hera but was overruled. Even if the other admins agree that Knox's decision was justified by the rules, it's clear that many people disagree with the competitive spirit that those rules express. They feel that the final game does not fit their idea of a fair, competitive NS2 game.
The lateness is absolutely your team's fault. It's also phone's team's fault. It is the responsibility of teams to schedule matches, just like it is the responsibility of the admins to step in if that doesn't happen. It's unclear how much the admins stepped in here, because there is nothing written before the day of the match. If you wanted people to know you booked it a month ago, you should have written that down.
saying a month ago is another placeholder deception, yes infamouse may have spammed me on STEAMCHAT a month prior to this, but i NEVER confirmed and i CONSISTENTLY TOLD HIM I WOULD BE INSANELY BUSY THe WEEKEND of the 17th and the weekend of the 10th DUE TO MY OWN REAL LIFE OBLIGATIONS. it was LITEARLLY confirmed the DAY OF THE MATCH. i was messaged aggressively by MEGA and told to confirm on the match page. who then spammed all the ns2 discords with the advertisement the DAY OF the MATCH. not a week before, not a month before, but AN HOUR BEFORE IT WAS SCHEDULED.
You really shouldn't take a difference in opinion so personally.
I have no personal issue with anyone in this thread, I'm just following the rules as they are written... if people dislike the way they are written, rewrite them, I'm not saying the rules are perfect, I'm just saying that the rules were followed in this situation... Does it suck? yeah. Is the situation at hand a shitty one? yeah, were any rules broken? no.
I would have rather seen the Edgy vs Placeholder final anyway, but you guys kinda screwed that up by playing other games.
Either way, if you take what I say on the forums personally, there isn't much I can do about that... I've said time and again that I suck at expressing myself properly in text format, the reason we were starting to not hate each other is because we were starting to actually talk, rather than type... come back and play more, and that would likely start happening again.
man i just stop reading when u say particularly dumb shit.
try and keep it to yourself kash, youre making this thread about you when it shouldnt be, but you continue to interject your own dumb ideas about the ENSL
I've literally copied and pasted the rules that prove they followed the rules... you have 1 rule that you question, but that rule is trumped by the "the ref has the final say" rule (paraphrased).
Like I just said, are the rules perfect? no. Do I think this situation is shitty? yes.
I've also said that I think the rules should be amended to prevent this kind of situation coming up in the future. Because I don't think the situation was fair. But as I keep saying, technically speaking, no rules were broken.
"but, skill of merc should be blah blah blah" - Refs decision is final.
I'm not sure what you find so complicated here... I don't agree with the rules for this situation, but they ARE the rules, and until they are changed, I will stick to them.
Okay, so lets condense down this whole argument to the one and only plausible dispute then shall we? (considering "bad map pick" and "I felt pressured" are just plain bad arguments to make)
"Herakles is too strong."
My arguments against this are as follows.
1. Herakles has been on teams with Wob, Zafod and Ypsi (at the very least) in the past, which suggests that their strength is relative to each others... I'm by no means saying Herakles didn't or isn't a carry with this, I'm just saying that he has been on teams with them in the past and no one said "lol, look at the hera carry"
2. This is the highest division of play, with supposedly the highest skilled players, to say that someone cannot play because they are "too good" is just plain stupid, if he cannot play in a team that is in the finals of the highest division, where exactly CAN he play?
3. Why not dispute it before the match instead of afterwards? of course they are going to put the pressure on to play when they are ready and you are not, it increases their chance of winning, is it scummy? yes, is it against the rules? no.
I'm open to dispute and discuss, but people sticking their fingers in their ears and saying "lalalalala" while convinced that they are right no matter what doesn't help the discourse.
I think phone already took care of point 1. Additionally, he replaced one of FOUR other people who are on their roster. According to Zafraud, his team knew about this match A MONTH IN ADVANCE (I was told it would be possibly played on that day 3 days in advance). So weird that none of those people were available... almost like he planeed it.
As for point 2, he can play on a TEAM that's he's A PART of.
Point 3. Phone has stated MULTIPLE times that He proTested heramerc.
Seems like your the one going lalalalalalalalalalala
okay, to point 1, is what he did shady as fuck? yes. against the rules? no... the planning was a shambles, it seems like "a month in advance" actually means "last minute with no prep and no warning for anyone involved."... again, shitty, but not against the rules... I do believe that the rules should be updated to stop this kind of thing happening, because the fact that it ISN'T against the rules is ridiculous.
Point 2. okay, I'll concede the point here. It doesn't benefit the discussion and skill level fluctuates from season to season, so using past teams as evidence of skill isn't efficient.
Point 3. Protesting the merc is where it seems to get hazy here... because Knox is/was unaware of a protest
and ixian muted everyone etc... so the two people that should have known what was going on, weren't aware.
Is there any evidence that Phone protested the merc BEFORE the match? (i.e not anecdotal, screenshots of conversations or something?)
