Swalk you got multiple feedback on tanith, the main problems are:
- Double are to easy to cap and keep for marines.
- Fusion hive is to hard to defend vs arcs in cargo.
These are not some balance details to change, the intimate design of the map needs to be changed.
So for me it is definitively a no go for tanith.
I'd say no to turtle till we got no version to test and season is about to begin.
I think biodome is ok to go even with the low FPS problem.
And I gonna try to test caged and docking in pcw asap to get you feedback on it.
I need to try jambi with the new build as well cause I think it's totally in marines favor now.
@RioS You can make adjustments to tanith to solve those problems, it shouldn't require a rework of the entire map. The tech point in Fusion could be moved so it's not siegeable from Cargo and one of the nodes in double could be removed. I'm not saying these are perfect fixes, but if what you are saying is correct, they might be solutions.
When the season begins, is not a deadline for maps to be removed from the season. So there is no reason to refuse turtle at this point.
I am beginning to be confused about biodome. I played it and it played pretty well even with the performance issues. But lots of people complained about it. Since I posted I removed it, people have been asking to get it back. Not sure what is going on here.
Well Biodome is without a doubt the worst map in consideration performance wise, the thing with performance though is that it of course varies by PC... So whilst some might still get a solid frame rate even if there is a significant dip, I for example get about 50 in points around Main Hall, which is not really acceptable and about half the minimum frame rate I get on other maps.
Gameplay wise, as it is basically Summit, and Summit is arguably the best map, it does actually play pretty well. However the performance combined with the layout not being that unique makes it not worth while in my opinion. I would rather play Summit with a solid 120 fps.
There is a patch coming very soon and of course they are working on performance in general so maybe that will help. Considering the divided opinions, I would suggest you run a poll, say 2 weeks before Biodome pops up? I am obviously "voting no" as it stands, but my PC is probably on the lower end for people who bother to try and play NS2 competitively and I do not know how bad it is for the average comp player.
Tanith needs some geometry in Cargo to allow fades to be viable in there. In NS1 their maneuverability in the air along with speed made it less of an issue, in NS2 that room is just too marine friendly. (Not to say it wasnt always marine friendly)
Same issue with shipping access on caged. We need geometry changes to make some rooms flow better, but layout wise I think they work amazing.
Yea if anyone will make an NSL version of biodome, please just get rid of almost all the plants, mostly the bamboo because its everywhere, and the water if possible, it just creates too much lag with the moving objects and plants on the map.
Tanith : reactor room should have only 1 rt spot there... It's too easy to take as marine. Acidic needs a rework. You can reach chemical from acidic too fast. It doesn't suit well with ns2 gameplay. A single phase gate in acidic gives you 2 secured resource towers, and easy path to cargo / fusion. Way too powerful in my opinion.
Caged : same as tanith, this map doesn't suit well with ns2 gameplay. Aliens are handicapped because of the huge distance between some rts. The highroad from marine start to double rts makes it even harder for gayliens... Moreover, we clearly see that the hivespawn is really important. You get sewer, you can base rush quite easily. You have generator, you are locked on 1 rt that is soooooooooooooooooooooo far from your hive. You have Ventilation, it's like you can't cap more than an rt aswell...
Turtle... I don't get the point on adding a map on which you don't have time to practice on. But nevermind, it seems like it doesn't matter. We have time to map test during a season while we don't have time to make a single week end event dedicated to this.
Biodome : In its gameplay, I'm not against. But well, since people are complaining about input mouselag when you have low fps, this map is not playable for everyone.
Docking : I'm still thinking it's a terrible choice. The result is depending too much on the hive spawn. Courtyard is a shitty highway for marine to harras rts way too fast. When you check the distance between north east point tech point and south west one, it's just... Dumb ? It takes always more time to get to cafetaria than going to marine start (even with locker room spawn) : What the hell is this tech point doing here ?
Tanith: I'm gonna talk with Jonacrab and try to convince him to remove one of the nodes in Reactor Room and the node in Acidic. It also has some missing textures, but I'm pretty sure Jonacrab is already aware of that.
Caged: Flaterectomy is putting out an update today with more cover for aliens. If you get the chance, please play it and bring new feedback.
Turtle: It's set to be played in week 5, within a few days I've gotten plenty of feedback for tanith and caged. There should be enough time to practice and make fixes, it should be out for us to play within far too long. Evilbob is fixing some power bugs and stuff from the remaking.
Biodome: I'm gonna do what I can to find someone to make a NSL version of it, so people are happier with the performance and it can be included in the season.
Docking: It seems no one cares to play it, so I'm gonna remove it for now.
For now the other 4 maps will stay as to be played in the season, they can still be removed later on. The matches will go up on the site today.
This is the current map list:
Week 1: summit - jambi
Week 2: tram - biodome
Week 3: caged - descent
Week 4: veil - turtle
Week 5: tanith - summit
Week 6: jambi - tram
Week 7: biodome - caged
I just published a new build of Caged on the Workshop. I based these changes on feedback I got from watching and talking to TWAT and Quaxy, who played a PCW on it yesterday---I recorded the match, and will upload it to YouTube tomorrow. Hopefully these changes help aliens a bit.
CHANGELOG [6th of september 2013]
o Once again added the Central Processing backdoor from Ventilation Access
o Moved the power node in Central Processing to its old location north of the stairs
o Added random-ass containers to Generator and the east corridor next to Central Processing as LOS blockers, and some pipes near the Purification power node
o Changed the Sewer -> Lower Sewer vent entrance
o Changed the Ventilation -> Purification vent entrance
o Changed the Central Processing -> Ventilation Access vent entrance
o Added a new vent exit from Generator -> Stability
o Made more geometry 'commander invisible' for an easier overview
I've had to wing the LOS blockers, as I had no feedback on which specific areas are affected.
And in defense of Generator spawn, while I admit it's a longer walking distance (measured by regular marine walking time) from Central Processing (30/31 seconds as opposed to 25/29 seconds from Sewer and Ventilation), travel time to the far and close RTs (each hive has one far and one close expansion RT) is comparable to the other hives, and it's the same amount of cysts as the other hives as well.
The new vent exit from Generator into Stability will reduce skulk travel time via that route towards Monitoring and Central Processing as well.
Please continue giving me feedback based on your plays. :)
I signed up to S3 to play some comp games. How can this be done when players are going to have to run around with the map up for 90% of the match. I'm going to have to pull it up at evey call and look over every room to see which way I am going, I have no clue where the vents are (a few maps dont even have them mapped, I played cage lastnight and no vents are mapped, I had no idea where I was going to come out). Games are going to be won by imballace tactics, exploits and one team just generally knowing the map better than the other. Why dont you put S3 on hold and just call this NS2 Team Deathmatch Competition, which is what it will be.
Definitely looking forward to playing biodome with the increased fps. Definitely is a rough map to play on when you dip into 60fps areas. Also can't wait to see how it plays out in week2 :)
The improvements on Biodome are also very impressive here and most rooms are only slightly below ideal now which is great. That damn fountain in the middle of Main Hall still causes pretty significant drops, but I think I would be happy to play this now over all. Maybe I just wont be the phase gate defender this time.
Many thanks to ObviousSight for this rather impressive feat and quick work!
I always giggle reading threads on ensl when it comes to maps. NS. NS never changes. Just keep it like ns1 and play 2 maps over and over. Maybe 3 if we're all feeling fancy and extra adventurous!
So, why don't we add 2 maps instead of 4? We could make a vote and see what the community prefers to play.
Maps like Tanith or Turtle are played just once on the whole season, I think most people won't learn them properly, either because of lack of time or interest.
And then there is the balance issue, some maps might not be playable on time.
So far the 2 maps I would choose are Caged and Biodome.
The new version of ns2_turtle came out yesterday evening. I encourage all of you to go try it out. It's a small and fast paced map, very different from any of the other maps in the map pool, which makes it very interesting imo. We played one round on it yesterday(was pretty late so we decided to stop) and balance seems to be good so far. Hard to tell when it was our very first time even seeing the new turtle and we only played a single round. Post here if you find any issues or bugs with the map. Like the other community mappers, evilbob is willing to make balance changes if needed. He watched our game yesterday and is already tweaking stairs in engine and bumping up the brightness a bit.
@malga You forget that the maps can also be picked for tiebreakers/semifinals/finals/bronze games. Just because the maps are only played once during the group play, doesn't mean that it's the only time during the season they will/can be played. If teams lack interest in playing the maps, then they will feel it when their opponents pick these maps in the matches stated above. Time isn't what is lacking. The only reason to remove any of these maps is if they aren't meeting the standards of the rest of the map pool, at the time they are set to be played in the group play. I'm not gonna put an artificial limit to how many maps that can be added to the season. If they deserve to stay, they will stay.
Honestly, after walking through this, I really really can't condone playing this map in week 4 (if at all this season). It will be frustrating and not enjoyable for the teams.
Biodome I enjoy and Caged I'm fine with. Golden and I are gonna walk through Tanith, too, to get some feedback for Jonacrab. If anybody has legitimate feedback for Tanith, Jona said he'd be happy to make changes.
We have played a couple of teams now who seem confused as to whether NSL Biodome will be played with cross-spawns only or not. Could you clarify if it is intended for Aliens to be able to spawn in Platform or Hydro, or is this going to be fixed?
What I take from that feedback is smaller powernode areas(more powernodes). I can definitely agree to that.
The very low amount of overlapping level in turtle isn't really a problem. Marines just need to be aware of it. Cysting is not a problem, you can cyst anywhere you want now by placing one cyst. You won't have to place cysts beneath any geometry.
All of the vents can be used for ambushes, they all have a purpose. The question is if they are too powerful. That we can only know from playing it.
evilbob already fixed the stairs in engine.
Instead of simply walking through the map and point out problems you think the map might have, try to actually play it and then bring fresh feedback ;) Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the effort and I think some of that feedback can be useful for evilbob, but walking through a map and playing it is two very different things. Dismissing a map without giving it a fair chance in a real game, that's just, ugh.
I just went through this map turtle. This map is unplayable. I can live with biodome and caged, but not turtle. I can even play tanith, but I can't handle turtle. The reason mainly is because we all get massive framerate drops on this map. I normally get 120+ fps on normal maps, even biodome, but on turtle....I get 30. Literally unplayable.
I just went through this map turtle. This map is unplayable. I can live with biodome and caged, but not turtle. I can even play tanith, but I can't handle turtle. The reason mainly is because we all get massive framerate drops on this map. I normally get 120+ fps on normal maps, even biodome, but on turtle....I get 30. Literally unplayable.
I just went through this map turtle. This map is unplayable. I can live with biodome and caged, but not turtle. I can even play tanith, but I can't handle turtle. The reason mainly is because we all get massive framerate drops on this map. I normally get 120+ fps on normal maps, even biodome, but on turtle....I get 30. Literally unplayable.
I just went through this map turtle. This map is unplayable. I can live with biodome and caged, but not turtle. I can even play tanith, but I can't handle turtle. The reason mainly is because we all get massive framerate drops on this map. I normally get 120+ fps on normal maps, even biodome, but on turtle....I get 30. Literally unplayable.
I have to agree with Decoy on the map Turtle. The map does not look fit to play competitively as is, I don't want to play that map. It's nice to have a variety of maps, but putting maps in just for variety is not the right solution.
You don't just say "You're going to have fights you literally can't win because of map design" and get away with it(You can't always pick where you're going to fight, especially when everyone knows you can't get meds in certain areas).
Taking a look through the map(turtle), there's a huge number of glaring issues(in addition to the ones golden and decoy wrote):
#1: No cover in rooms. None. At all. ever. Even the small rooms which favor aliens haven't the slightest shred of cover.
The large rooms are ridiculously marine favored.
#2: Lanes of fire are ridiculously long, and again, don't have cover.
#3: The extremely tight corners and double/triple corners after the long-ass hallways. Marine goes in, bones and gore come exploding out, never a miscommunication.
#4: The entire center of the map is a death trap. Bilge and tech aren't viable for marines to hold, due to the small size and overhead problems. Hub is the same thing for aliens. Big room, no cover, easy to see the entrances.
#5: The outside edges of the map have directions you can advance in as either marine or alien, but not the other. "RE: TIGHT CORNERS AND LONG CORRIDORS". As such, you'll see 2base play off either team on 2-3x RT, and nothing else. Tech appears unholdable for either team unless there's a massive skill imbalance.
#6: The RT placements are holes in the map you pour resources into. All of them are ridiculously easy to reach and kill, and from multiple directions, to boot. Given that there are only 8 on the map, 2-3 RT economies would be the standard(maybe less), and an extremely slow tech for such a small map.
I wouldn't want to play this map on a pub server, let alone competitive with virtually no time for practice.
I would advocate base rushing every game on Turtle.
You're right, I didn't just say "You're going to have fights you literally can't win because of map design". You said that. I said, as a marine, you always pick the path you go(or your commander does), ie. you always have a say about where you can be engaged. Marines simply needs to be aware of places where the commander can't support them, specificly beneath geometry. You can always place yourself so the geometry isn't in the way. It's called map awareness.
LOS problems can be solved with props or geometry. evilbob just need specifics.
Great job trying to predict how the map plays out, or not. When we played it, both teams had access and were able to hold the resources they needed. All you wrote were your assumptions of how the map plays. I won't remove a map based on assumptions. Play it and bring real feedback instead.
3-4 weeks of practice should be plenty to learn this map. If you refuse to play it during scrims, your loss when it hits the official matches. Gl with your baserushes.
