These are the thoughts behind the changes, written by rantology with editing from me.


Mucous - Only heals hit points. Direct change from armor regeneration to flat hit points recuperation

This means that when you cast mucous, it will no longer directly heal armor, but instead only heal hit points. The hope is that this will make it less impactful during engagements.


Reduce intial blink cost to fades by 3. 11 down from 14

Reducing the initial blink cost by 3 will give fades approximately 2 to 3 more blinks during combat, reducing the severity of energy management slightly.


Added 0.5 second (up from 0.0 seconds effectively) delay between marines using phasegates

Previously phasegates had no phase rate at all. You could phase in marines as fast as they could walk through a gate. This contributed to the difficulty of breaking marine fortifications and turtles. Marines who were previously out of position could gather and pile through a gate to defend it will little consequence. Having a phase rate of half a second per marine would punish marines for being out of position and make marine turtles less formidable.


Increased Nutrient Mist cost from 1 to 2 resources
Decreased cyst maturity time from 180 to 60 seconds
Reduced mature cyst hit points from 550 to 450
Reduced biomass 1 cost from 20 to 15 resources. Biomass 2 cost from 30 to 20 resources.
Increase shift, shade, crag, whip costs from 10 to 13 resources
Reduced spur, veil, shell costs from 20 to 15 resources
Lifeform upgrade costs reduced. Skulk (Leap/Xeno) - From 20 to 15 resources, Gorge (Babblers, Bile, Web) - From 30 to 20 resources, Lerk (Umbra/Spores) - From 35 to 25 resources, Fade (Shadowstep, Vortex, Stab) - From 35 to 25 resources, Onos (Charge/Boneshield) - From 35 to 30 resources
Increased lerk egg team resource drop biomass requirement from biomass 2 to biomass 4

The goal of the alterations in the resource costs is to equalize the appeal of dropping static defensive structures (PvE) and teching to upgrades and lifeform abilities. In the current build, lifeform abilities have been seldom seen and some avoided completely (gorge/fade abilities). Upgrades (shells, spurs, veils) were slow to emerge and too costly. Both of these were almost always delayed in favor of dropping moderate amounts of static defense (PvE) because it's much more cost effective. The intention is to reduce the massive cost of the alien tech path while slightly increasing the cost of static defense. Ultimately the two should be equally viable options.


Please leave thoughtful feedback, especially if you have gotten the chance to play the mod.

Really like those changes. Looking forward to trying it out.

0.5 delay for pg will make them too easy to kill. It's too easy to block marines when they get out. Killing 1 every 0.5s won't be an issue at all if you have 2 marines at the exit.

What's the reasoning behind lerk egg drop requiring 4 biomass?

biomass cost got reduced, I guess it's mainly that.

But making it from 20tres 1 hive to 2 hive tech with total cost of biomass including hive 40+15+15(the cheapest way) is ridiculous, that is not small change.
There is real meta change and some strats that could be done with lerk egg drop. At least for us, this is closing strategic and opening options, I thought that's not the way to go. Also it has nothing to do with PvE. If you want to make it cost the same, just make lerk egg cost 5 more tres.

Vindaloo

But making it from 20tres 1 hive to 2 hive tech with total cost of biomass including hive 40+15+15(the cheapest way) is ridiculous, that is not small change.
There is real meta change and some strats that could be done with lerk egg drop. At least for us, this is closing strategic and opening options, I thought that's not the way to go. Also it has nothing to do with PvE. If you want to make it cost the same, just make lerk egg cost 5 more tres.

This change was made because there are a number of buffs to the aliens in that changelog.. and the hope is that the alien tech path will have more of a presence in the course of a given game, and that the aliens themselves will be a bit stronger because of it (you should have more biomass, more upgrades, the fade won't suck as much).

Lerk drops are problematic in that they directly bypass the p-res system, that gives you an extra fade or an early onos while having a strong presence of 2-3 lerks at the same time in the early game with little sacrifice. And while it was working alright before, the goal of this changlog is that ideally, the aliens should no longer need to rely on such a bypass to get by because the lifeforms/PvP power should be a little more formidable with the tech tree and upgrades being more accessible.

We did not want to remove lerk drops from the game completely, but there were concerns that it would be too strong for it to remain on hive 1 when considering all of this. We're aware that this was a strategy currently employed by a number of teams, and it sucks to take options away, but in the end the bypassing of the p-res mechanic is just such a strong and unintended use of T-Res.. this issue was seen with egg drops ever since they were introduced. In the end, it seemed like the most reasonable decision.

Hmm, basically you are saying we are gaming the system and we should feel bad. :) No, I see your point, but we trained our new special strats for 3 weeks completely for nothing. I didn't see anyone doing them.
Alright let me ask different question, what is khamm suppose to do to not be bored to death?
With lerk egg drop he could go gorge and help out.
Whips are completely useless for the new price, since they are not hitting 100% anyway.

Vindaloo

Hmm, basically you are saying we are gaming the system and we should feel bad. :) No, I see your point, but we trained our new special strats for 3 weeks completely for nothing. I didn't see anyone doing them.
Alright let me ask different question, what is khamm suppose to do to not be bored to death?
With lerk egg drop he could go gorge and help out.
Whips are completely useless for the new price, since they are not hitting 100% anyway.

The Kham and further alien tech tree adjustments are something that may happen in the future, but this changelog is as far as we felt comfortable going in the first iteration of the mod- even so some of these might be further tweaked or removed (the jury is still out on the change to phase rates). I don't think the khamm will be any more or less bored with these changes- unless you were giving your lerk egg to the kham.

I do not think whips have been rendered useless by a 3 t-res cost hike... PvE/static defense in general has been overused and over-relied on in recent months, I think this is one thing that almost every team in every division can agree on. Something had to change, it was not going to be pretty any way you look at it. The change was meant to be minor, but meaningful within reason.

And as always, if it becomes apparent that something is an issue or isn't quite working out- it will be remedied. That's the beauty of a community-run competitive mod... we don't have to wait months to see results.

Looks fine. But honestly, bots still being used with shade hive? Can we just end this sad update for ns2 please. And no, its not about 'adapting' to gameplay, it's about lowering the skill level.

rantology

And as always, if it becomes apparent that something is an issue or isn't quite working out- it will be remedied. That's the beauty of a community-run competitive mod... we don't have to wait months to see results.

That's actually one of the driving forces behind this mod. It's community ran and we can hotfix almost instantly and not be handcuffed by someone else's schedule should issues arise.


btw, for those already practicing on it. Although a delay was added to phasegates, it doesn't seem to be working right now. It's a bug and will be fixed.

So the BMod is live somewhere, could we get a link or something? Didn't find it on workshop. We cannot practice our strats as they are obsolete. When is the ETA on the mod to be live for all NSL matches? I think it's my main concern as morale is low after doing something for 3 weeks which is useless now.

EDIT: I see now, NS2b, brilliant name. :)
So when is this mandatory?

Vindaloo

So the BMod is live somewhere, could we get a link or something? Didn't find it on workshop. We cannot practice our strats as they are obsolete. When is the ETA on the mod to be live for all NSL matches? I think it's my main concern as morale is low after doing something for 3 weeks which is useless now.

EDIT: I see now, NS2b, brilliant name. :)
So when is this mandatory?

Zefram

It would hopefully be a mod fleshed out with useful and thoughtful changes, bugfixes, etc. A mod that is implemented into Season 5.

Hopefully Zefram sticks to his word, saying one thing and doing another is pretty bad and I would consider testing a balance mod during the season even worse. Something like that should be reserved for less serious events like cups in-between the seasons. It's great that it is already released so people can have a go with it though.

swalk

Hopefully Zefram sticks to his word, saying one thing and doing another is pretty bad and I would consider testing a balance mod during the season even worse. Something like that should be reserved for less serious events like cups in-between the seasons. It's great that it is already released so people can have a go with it though.

I made it clear to every captain and your captain when I approached them that this mod wasn't a one and done set of static changes and that it would go through changes throughout the season. At some point, the changes will be locked for the sake of the playoffs and work would continue afterwards if necessary. If you're talking about "a promise", there was never one made. The balance mod was a personal and unvocalized goal for the league. Some of us like to plan for the future, keeping the big picture in mind, and take action to make things better when the opportunity arises.

Just my thoughts on this after a few playthroughs -

1. Muccous HP-only heal, direct change from armor into flat hp heal

This means when you cast Muccous, it will no longer directly heal armor, but instead heal only HP (can no longer heal armor). The hope is that this will make it less impactful during engagements.

Interested to see how this one plays out. My primary concern with the vanilla mucous is that it is a permanent healing effect, which I think should be the role of the crag not the drifter. I worry that due to the large HP value of certain PVE objects like whips that this change won’t be that effective, but we’ll wait and see. In my mind, the healing effects of a drifter should be temporary, with the permanent roles left to the crag/hive. I would like to see something like a larger CD on mucous on drifter, and a rollback effect whereby the mucous layer disapates over time. So it rolls up to a max value, holds there for x seconds and then roles back down if no damage taken, meaning it is used to combat situations only, not as a mobile crag.

2. Reduce initial blink cost on fades by 3 (14 > 11)

Reducing the initial blink cost by 3 will give approximately 2-3 more blinks during combat engagements, reducing the severity of energy management for the fade slightly.

This is a bit of a Band-Aid fix that kinda ignores the greater problem with the lifeform. Fact is, current energy levels are pretty much fine. Most people should be able to fade properly with current energy levels. A massive energy change like this is also going to make the likelihood of going shift hive even less now, as more fades will be able to play without celerity with the extra blinks. At most, I would reduce this value down to 13, not 11 to provide players that extra blink to escape with if they mismanage their energy.

The real issue with fades is their scalability, not their energy management. Currently, there is literally 0 difference from the time when fades pop around 7-12 minutes to the time in the lategame when they are versing 3-3 marines. Ever tried to take down a 3-3 marine with a jetty or catpacks? Once the fade has both its upgrades from the hives, it has reached its top potential. Biomass adds very little to sustain it later in the game. The issue is that vortex and stab are absolutely useless. These are the things that need to be augmented to ensure that fades scale correctly into the late game.

3. a) Increase shift/shade/crag/whip chamber costs to 13 each.,

b) Reduce spur/veil/shell costs to 15 each.
c) New lifeform upgrade costs: Skulk- 15, Gorge - 20, Lerk - 25, Fade - 25, Onos - 30.
d) Reduce Biomass 1 cost to 15, Biomass 2 cost to 20.
e) Decrease Cyst maturity time from 180 to 60, reduce Mature Cyst HP from 550->450hp
f) Increase Mist cost to 2 tres

Not sure how these changes will play out – will have to see.

g) Increase Lerk Egg Drop biomass requirement to Biomass 4

This seems like a change brought on by ascension’s use of the lerk egg in the ns2wc. Not sure that I like this change. It's odd, as Lerk eggs lose their effectiveness by the time you have a 2nd hive, and if you are forced to rush a 2nd hive to get it, then that is a huge gamble which the marines can punish you for. If teams are abusing the lerk egg drop because they have too much res, then marines are doing something wrong or cant aim. Tres income for ppl that rush lerk eggs is relatively low early game, and if marines are able to kill the 2nd harvester, well then you’re screwed. Not sure what this change is ultimately trying to achieve, i think it's a viable strat that can be countered, especially now that mass PvE is harder to achieve.

4. Add 0.5 delay between marines using phasegates

Never saw an issue with this as a grind gate would kill almost all the marines pilling through anyway. Seems to be aimed at 1-2 lifeforms killing a gate.

I like most of these changes. I'm a little bit concerned about the lerk egg drop change, as others have pointed out, but by reading rantologys posts it appears you guys have a certain vision on where you want this to go. So I'm open to seeing how this is going to turn out. (Btw, Vindaloo, you can still have your Khamm go gorge just the same, you just won't have a free lerk!)

I'd love to see some changes to the fades vortex and stab. They are just not very useful at all.

The mucous change to HP-only, I absolutely love! Often times against mucous you struggle with getting the frag with the pistol because the armor reduces the damage. Hopefully with this change, pistol is a bit more effective.

I would like to read some more thoughts behind the phase gate change however. That one I simply can't get my head wrapped around. Seems like a completely random alien buff just for the sake of buffing aliens.

B1

Looks fine. But honestly, bots still being used with shade hive? Can we just end this sad update for ns2 please. And no, its not about 'adapting' to gameplay, it's about lowering the skill level.

My main grief with hallucinations is not the AI, I just think they absorb too many bullets. Lowering the hp is a better change imo.

Only had the chance to play one game and do some 1v1/2v2 drills as fade so experience is somewhat limited, but in general the whole less pve more upgrades seems quite plausible and welcomed change.

I'm not sure about the significance of the bio4 requirement of lerk eggs, i know it has been in increased use in late months by couple teams and in pugs with varying success. But it didn't really seem like it was something that was unfair. Even if it is a weird thought of being able to have 6 lifeforms for aliens, it only seems to merit an argument in the theory if in our mind we are alright with alien commanders being able to contribute to the alien team in such a fashion, when the marine commanders really are not able to.

The fade blink energy change seems to be as well quite odd way to fix the problem, but after doing some drills as vanilla fade against shotguns it felt quite a lot easier to be effective without that precious celerity upgrade. This in turn does remove shift hive being mandatory for teams that require that upgrade for their fades to be effective. But as bonage said, and i mentioned in the other thread, fade upgrades need to be drastically changed as fades do not scale at all in late game, and as with the changes to the techtree it would suggest we will be seeing more of 'decked out' teams combating each other.

Regarding the phase gate cooldown, i think there should be a cooldown but 0.5 might be a bit too much. While grinding gates is effective, it seems a pretty bad design for 6 marines be able to phase through and it sometimes ending up in fonky behaviour regarding pushback and such. Let alone it being quite dumb on those rare occasions when the marines do end up getting through and blasting already fragile and energy starved aliens in the face.

Zefram

I made it clear to every captain and your captain when I approached them that this mod wasn't a one and done set of static changes and that it would go through changes throughout the season. At some point, the changes will be locked for the sake of the playoffs and work would continue afterwards if necessary. If you're talking about "a promise", there was never one made. The balance mod was a personal and unvocalized goal for the league. Some of us like to plan for the future, keeping the big picture in mind, and take action to make things better when the opportunity arises.

This mod is still highly experimental, something that should NOT be applied to a season in progress. As you can read from the other comments, there is not a general consensus that all these changes are great. I never said anything about a promise, but advertising the mod as if it is supposed to be for the future(Season 5) and then slapping it into the already running season, is pretty fucking bad. I'm extremely disappointed to have this highly experimental mod shoved down the throat of the league at this point. Either you should have thought of this alot sooner or you should have waited until the season was over. But this, this is just unprofessional. Reminds me of my mistake with the maps in season 3. At least I came to my senses and pulled them back before they had to be played.

+1 swalk

swalk

This mod is still highly experimental, something that should NOT be applied to a season in progress. As you can read from the other comments, there is not a general consensus that all these changes are great. I never said anything about a promise, but advertising the mod as if it is supposed to be for the future(Season 5) and then slapping it into the already running season, is pretty fucking bad. I'm extremely disappointed to have this highly experimental mod shoved down the throat of the league at this point. Either you should have thought of this alot sooner or you should have waited until the season was over. But this, this is just unprofessional. Reminds me of my mistake with the maps in season 3. At least I came to my senses and pulled them back before they had to be played.

Every team had the opportunity to vote on this. It wasn't forced on anyone. Premiere, Div1, and Div2 unanimously voted in favor of using the mod during the season with the knowledge that it hasn't been tested and will in fact be changing. That's how stagnant the current balance of ns2 is. (OnFire voted in favor of the mod, btw)

The issue of testing is that, like new maps, they simply do not get played unless they're included in a season. Personally I do not find the idea of playing on the vanilla game for another 2-3 months appealing after playing just a few rounds on the mod and not having to deal with spammed PvE and broken muccous.

rantology

Every team had the opportunity to vote on this. It wasn't forced on anyone. Premiere, Div1, and Div2 unanimously voted in favor of using the mod during the season with the knowledge that it hasn't been tested and will in fact be changing. That's how bad and stagnant the current balance of ns2 is. (OnFire voted in favor of the mod, btw)

The issue of testing is that, like new maps, they simply do not get played unless they're included in a season. Personally I do not find the idea of playing on the vanilla game for another 2-3 months appealing after playing just a few rounds on the mod and not having to deal with spammed PvE and broken muccous.

It is forced on alot of people who did not have any say at all, don't fool yourself. Not everyone agrees with their team leader.

I agree that the mod is a great idea for the future and it has my full support in that regard, as I agree with most of you here that the balance of the game is not exactly where it should be.

But the mod has no place in this season, due to it's experimental nature. There are other ways of achieving the same thing(getting people to play it), like holding a cup during a weekend. And yes, it's not optimal to do cups during the season, but it IS a possibility if you really want to rush out changes to the metagame. The mod should be refined and generally accepted BEFORE it is put into the season and that is definitely NOT the case here.

Progression requires work, not only for the makers of the mod and the league admins. It requires work for all the players that take part of the league. The mod is completely open to feedback and needed changes can be made on short notice. In the recent games seen with the mod we have already seen some interesting plays that emphasize on alien field play and give them more opportunities to grow. Even though it’s to early to tell where these changes will lead I have confidence that the balance mod is the right way to go.

These changes are just the first step towards a bigger goal. Like mentioned before alien tech tree needs to be more part of the game. A simple example is fade lacking something to scale it better in the mid-late game. We already have ideas how to adjust that but at the same time we need to take babysteps. Instead of putting all the changes in at the same time we will slowly progress towards a final goal to make ns2 as fun as possible.

The other possibility is not to give the mod a chance and stay with vanilla. Seeing how slow the progression has been past months and that Sewlek won't be given full time to work on ns2, we can all see how many changes are going to be made. The limitations to aliens and the marine powerhouse won't change.

The players working on the mod have been working on these thoughts for a long time and I ask you to put some trust in the balance team and allow the mod to move forward. Each change that is put in has a lot of thoughts behind them and a good reason. We will try to explain each change as well as we can as we move on.


Even before the alien tech reduction the lerk egg has been proven quite powerful. There have even been strategies to get 2 lerk eggs within 140 seconds that have high chance of succeeding. The reduced teching cost aliens have now much more freedom in the early game. With the reduced cyst mature time aliens also don't have to rely as much on PvE to block marine fire to the cysts.
This gives aliens more opportunities for creative play. We have already seen 3 early veils pop up with reduced trait costs, earlier bilebomb usage to pick out shotguns from fallen marines. Instant bio 3 to use bone wall effectively. Even early commander gorge egg into fast expansion with shift echo ability.
We have seen hints of these plays in the past but teams have always fallen back to more pve heavy play. It is still to early to say how things will develop exactly but as mention before, this is good first step.
With this in mind we felt it was important that teams would not be able to use tres to gain lerks and tech at the same time. Since pres is currently more valuable on the alien side we need to make sure that the pres tradeoff still exists. A team that goes early gorge gains huge expansion speed, that should not allow it to gain a lerk as well. Bio 4 Lerk eggs will still be strong with higher chance of umbra upgrade in mid game. It will allow aliens to replace fallen lerks with tres instead of pres. This might still prove to strong but its to early to tell.

The extra energy for fade is kinda of a middle way until the fade gets a tech to make it stronger later in the game. Before fades on crag hive depended on mucous to be able to survive, their limited mobility allowed marines to hit them quite reliably. With the nerf to mucous the fades needed something to be able to fight shotguns, little bit more mobility is the first thing we are trying out. The same goes with shade hive. This does give a buff to the celerity fade and we will keep a eye on how strong it becomes after players get used to the new energy cost.

Lastly the phase gate change is to reduce the power of marine turtling power. Even when marines are quite behind aliens have quite a hard time to break phase gates. Big reason for this is that 4 marines can phase in at the same time and overwhelm even 3-4 aliens grinding the phase gates. This is because marines get pushed out of the gate and escape the containment. It’s even more strong when marines start to use dual phase gates in close proximity.
If marines leave the phase gates vulnerable they should not be able to save them easily. PG's already give marines high map presence and mobility, aliens should be able to take them down reliably if marines leave them undefended.
Even with that in mind we are keeping a close eye on this change and ready to change it back if needed.


I hope these explanations give more insight into our thinking. We are always open for feedback and don’t hesitate to give any. The changes we make in the end can’t please everyone but I ask you to give them a fair chance so we can make ns2 as fun to play as possible.

+1 Grissi

Note: the gate delay is currently broken in the mod. (At least it doesn't feel like its working.) I do get the concerns on gate grinding but I also hate it when 5 rines can phase instantaneously.

So we tried to play some games and it seems that what you loose at PvE cost you can easily recuperate at upgrades and biomass cost, somewhat zero-sum game. PvE still very viable. From my point of view not much changed meta game wise.

swalk

It is forced on alot of people who did not have any say at all, don't fool yourself. Not everyone agrees with their team leader.

I agree that the mod is a great idea for the future and it has my full support in that regard, as I agree with most of you here that the balance of the game is not exactly where it should be.

But the mod has no place in this season, due to it's experimental nature. There are other ways of achieving the same thing(getting people to play it), like holding a cup during a weekend. And yes, it's not optimal to do cups during the season, but it IS a possibility if you really want to rush out changes to the metagame. The mod should be refined and generally accepted BEFORE it is put into the season and that is definitely NOT the case here.

It sounds like you need to have a conversation with your team leader. It's unfeasible to expect an admin to contact every player to check their feelings on things like these. It's up to team leaders to communicate their team's feelings on the subject.

I, for one, am in support of this balance mod. So far, we've seen a reduction in the amount of PvE which, to me, has been the most frustrating part of vanilla play.

I think the 0.5 second timer may be a little too long, 0.3 seconds should be enough, however we haven't had an opportunity to play since the change has been fixed.

Overall, well done and I look forward to seeing how these changes evolve.

I personally agree with swalk, but I don't think this is the place to personally attack the people involved with making that decision.

Also, in saying that I disagree with the use of the balance mod after the season has started is a moot point, as we are all used to UWE builds coming in the middle of seasons anyway that change, sometimes drastically, the core aspects of the game.

I might not support all the changes or the things that aren't being looked at yet, but if you want results and to shape this game faster into something more playable and enjoyable overall, then using this mod during this season is the right call imo. A weekend cup won't come close to the results you can get from a season test mod. Also maybe we won't have to see like 90% marine wins in NS2WC 2015.

Don't be afraid of alittle change. If some changes aren't working out, they will be looked at and fixed.
All you have to do is give feedback about it.

I get that the turret/mac farm on the gate is pretty hard to break without a well-timed bilebomb with lifeforms rush, but it is doable, so even though the mod isn't completely working with the 0.5 delay I would have to agree that this 'sounds' like alot. There's no NS1 knock-back in NS2 and since you haven't tried it yet, I would also advice going for 0.3 and then moving it to 0.5 instead.

Golden

I think the 0.5 second timer may be a little too long, 0.3 seconds should be enough

+1

Another change I'd like to suggest is for hallucinations to only spawn skulks. I.e. you hallucinate a skulk, it produces a skulk. You hallucinate a fade/lerk/onos, it produces a skulk.

This keeps shade start relatively strong early game and when the lifeforms come out, it's easier to determine what's fake and what's not.

I have no problems this mod being introduced mid league with the option of it being changed at whim. Except if this is the last season before summer and the almost inevitable summer inactivity.

I feel like such a volatile league leads to less importance and significance behind the victories and the losses. It would be so disappointing to have very few competitive choices afterwards or boring cups where group stages are 4-0 stomps and knockouts are single elimination.

Wob

Another change I'd like to suggest is for hallucinations to only spawn skulks. I.e. you hallucinate a skulk, it produces a skulk. You hallucinate a fade/lerk/onos, it produces a skulk.

+1

Fake Onos and Fade ragdolls flying about and blocking sight is just outright silly, especially considering the extremely low cost.

Wob

Another change I'd like to suggest is for hallucinations to only spawn skulks. I.e. you hallucinate a skulk, it produces a skulk. You hallucinate a fade/lerk/onos, it produces a skulk.

+2