transparency - no
communicating/asking the community - no
advertising/marketing effectively to bring new competitive players? - no
This is not meant to be an attack on the admins. We only wish to work with the admins to help them make the decisions that will move the game forward, and provide feedback so that we can assure that it continues to operate in the community’s best interests for NS2. There is no need to show the Steam activity graph - we are all dreadfully aware. These points are not of a vocal few, either. This post has been crafted with the voices and ideas of several who consider themselves a part of this community. If you skip this thread and are not honest in your messages, I’m sorry to say NS2 will continue on its current trend. I played NS1, many of us did it and a big part started NS2 before or during its release, we don’t want the game to die. That’s why we believe you, ensl admins, has to consider the points mentioned above. This is not because we don’t like what you’re doing and have done, but because we care about the game and its community. We both want a prosper and thriving NS2 and we will fight for that.
He certainly does communicate when making decisions. He's responded to you directly in more than a few comment chains. And the advertising for ensl is plastered all over the main NS2 site.
You just don't like his decisions. so your entire post is, he doesn't listen to ME. I'm right he's wrong. waaaah
Maybe my english translates differently to canadian english? Since when has he asked the community for what they would like? The only communication is after he has made the decision and an alternative is never seriously considered. There isnt good enough advertising, the only people who visits uwe site already knows about the ensl. I want to make better use of the constantly outdated twitter feed in game or find an alternative way of advertising in game. The post is nothing about my personal agenda or my ideas not being heard, its the lack of community drive in the ensl.
And, and Your whole post is just like "waah im an idiot"
With all due respect to all those who work hard to make NS2 and ENSL better places to be, past and present, i think that we all sometimes need to remind ourselves that this game is just another little indie with another rather short life-time. People seem to have this radical idea that a game is supposed to live forever just because they like it. I think i remember a number close to 250K in sales for this game from some article a while ago. I think that's very good. But it's not anyone's fault really that the vast majority of these have left, and i don't think any work in the world could have stopped this. I for one doubt that there's that many skilled NS2 pubbers left out there who haven't heard about ENSL. All of us who still play pub from time to time do come across them. But certainly never in great numbers. We have to realize that NS is a fetish, and we its few devoted lovers. Maybe we could turn more people into joining ENSL instead of quitting, like Skyice here suggests, but my point is that it's down to NS2 being the unique game that it is that unfortunately for us is what killed the game, and not anyone in ENSL or CDT. I don't think anyone's execution is to blame for anything around here. Everyone is working hard trying to do what they believe is the best for the community. And any combination of staff members would have done the same thing.
Skyice, what makes you think that the individuals of the community are gathered enough into the same boat to actually get anything done better than what the current staff of the CDT and ENSL are anyway? Just because you and some others think it would be great to do one thing, i and some others could think it's a terrible idea, and we'd be back at nil again. I don't like to have to admit it, but i honestly think that the competitive NS2 community being as small as it is now, we don't really have any chances to change anything unless we indeed do give all the power to a few individuals who direct the scene. It would probably be totally chaotic if we'd hear every single person out and expected the staff to listen to this. I'm more afraid of that chaos and dramatic aftermath than i am of the possibility that the current staff will make choices on their own that will make things worse. I really don't think the rest of us could have done "better" as "better" is highly relative for all of us fetish-lovers. I don't think even 10% of what "we" would want would actually make it into the game as we'd all want different things that in most cases would contradict with what someone else wants.
The only big gripe i've had with the ENSL staff is the team-placement in certain divs. How certain teams that belong in Premiere div have to climb their way up through the lower divisions just because they are new teams, making it a horrible experience for the other teams who actually belong in those divisions, is something i consider the worst idea anyone has ever had as it defeats the very purpose of the divisions anyway. But even here there would have been a hundred different opinions on who should be where, and at the end of the day there would be something to complain about anyway. Besides, i've only participated in one season, and i think the ENSL staff has changed quite a bit since then, so i don't know if what i experienced was just a fluke.
I am myself in the maptesting group. But that's not because i believe it will "save" the game, as i don't consider that possible in terms of number of people playing it. That's just something i do to make the few remaining lovers (including myself) get new content to enjoy the game with before i too get tired of the game. And when i do, it certainly won't be because of the lack of transparency, communication or marketing from the members of staff, but because of the game itself.
With all this said, i don't see how it would hurt to gain the three points mentioned in the OP. But i feel sorry for those hopeful enough to believe this will make the player-base grow. Frankly i feel sorry for all of us left here as we don't really have anywhere else to go once NS2 dies. But i think we should be happy for the years we got with it.
Other than the "division" debacle, i'd agree, but you forgot to add how much more work it is for someone who is volunteering to do this, to do the ground work to be truly transparent or
communicating/asking the community for every decision he makes.
You could also agree that the community is full of people who don't contribute even when asked, and you'd just be better off doing trial and run excercises for everything you want to push for.
ps. i'm sure he does communicate with a lot of people, just not in the way to be transparent to everyone.
--> New admins and new sytem, so still NO IMPACT for Sign Ups.
Season 4 : 32 EU and 15 US teams
Season 5 : 14 EU and 9 US teams
1st : We lost 24 teams : maybe it's because the game is dying, or because a lot of teams disbanded in season 4, or because a lot of comp players were sick of new meta every weeks without ANY consideration if they were not US prem div players)
2nd : Season 4 was 2.13 EU teams for 1 US team
Season 5 is 1.5 EU teams for 1 US team
.... no explanation for that....
Or maybe its because Season 4 was starting right after the NS2 WC, where competitive excitement about the game was highest, and Season 5 is starting right after summer, where competitive excitement has (for the last 10 years) been the lowest?
Stop trying to blame the 'death' of NS2 on people.
Transparency. The threads, the teamspeak chats, PMs.
Communicating. Captains were asked at the start, and threads are responded to frequently. Teamspeak meeting.
Advertising. Advertise what? It was summer and it's historically inactive. The base game numbers are dwelling so comp numbers are bound to as well.
TEAMS CAN PLAY SEEDING MATCHES.
Can u guise send me ur addresses so I can hang out with you all in the eventuality of a zombie apocalypse, cause u guise r braindead.
Oh really? Everyone knows that, mate. Why are you so angry all the time? Skyice is just stating his opinions based on his experiences. You don't seem to have been affected by this problem as you seem to think there is no problem. I can't speak much for his three points, but i can say this about seeding matches:
Last season was a good example of how good seeding matches clearly are NOT. Very good teams still had to climb through lower divisions just because they are new, and that's a fact. There were loads of teams in the wrong div and the "Were you satisfied with your div placement this season?" poll showed an opinion split down the middle. No wonder why so many people left ENSL after last season. There is hardly anything more important for any kind of tournament than to get teams into the right divisions. And according to almost half the community, the ENSL had a high failure rate of this last season. I don't think we should disregard the possibility of a connection there, or there may be no season six. I was myself outraged by the poor division placement as i have never come across such a poor mix before in any competitive tournament.
Whom's fault this was is hard to tell. But i think the most important thing is that we accept that something went wrong, because it might just be the biggest blow to morale in the NS2 comp scene. I have some ideas that could help. They are going to require extra work and potentially make the season take quite a bit longer to complete. But i think it would be worth it.
1. Instead of having seeding matches decided by statistics, have a small group of staff members with a good amount of experience watch every seeding match and let them decide an appropriate division. The whole match is important, not just the final numbers.
2. Have new teams (or teams containing many newly registered ENSL members) play more seeding matches.
3. If a team still ends up in the wrong division, much too easily beating a few opponents and thus not really belonging there, move them up one division mid-season and have them start over in there. This sounds controversial, but i think any person not completely lacking all honor would agree that the point of competition is to fight those who are equal or better. So if you're clearly much better than the rest in your div, it's really just a waste of time for you and for the them.
Well, i'd really rather hang with the zombies than with Mr. Irritable. But if i'll bring you some laxatives and some melatonin-pills while you bring the hardest drugs you can get your hands on so you can CTFD, then we can surely enjoy the end of days together, mate!
There's a lot of misinformation or poor analysis of trends in this thread.
Let's start with the most recent posts and work our way back to the OP.
The poll you quoted was created in the middle or near the end of SEASON 3. It overlapped with season 4 and while there may have been some complaints about Season 4 seedings, that poll is hardly indicative of a correct census, considering it spanned over TWO seasons and TWO different league admins AND head admins. Also, as I've written in my state of the league address http://www.ensl.org/topics/1176, by the numbers, season 4 was the MOST successful season the NSL has had. the LEAST percentage of teams disbanded, the MOST games played. That isn't propaganda. That's just pure numbers.
Seedings were determined at the start of the season 4 with DIRECT input from the community. http://www.ensl.org/articles/856. I created a framework to work with and the community through spreadsheets of their own from people like Vindaloo and Fiskbit and the commentary from MANY people from MULTIPLE divisions helped create the placements we had.
Yes, we may have had a handful of teams out of almost 50 that may have been placed in the wrong divisions, but many of those teams when approached by me (whether to be placed in a lower or higher division] chose to stay in one or move to another and for the most part, by their own volition... chose poorly. Some teams that I suggested move down divisions, even though they WON their seeding match, stayed in the higher division and LOST every single match. While some teams that wanted to move down divisions, even when I suggested for them to stay, moved down and WON almost every match. I can't really win in those situations. Teams will want one thing and if I don't let them get a shot, at the end of the season, they'll complain about that, even if it was the appropriate move.
Another issue of contention was higher division players "slumming" in lower division teams. A few players complained that these higher skilled players shouldn't be allowed in the lower divisions or that the team containing them should have been pushed up. You can not sum up a team by one player's performance. The only questions that needed to be asked was, "As a team, can this team compete in this division? or As a team, could this team compete in the next higher division?" And for the most part, even with "the carry" (I hate this term), the team with the slumming player could not compete in the next higher division.
I believe that most of the complaints from EU teams were about intercontinental matches. Now that there are few teams, this aspect of the league, which I and many others believe brought some of the best matches, will not change. We are not a league of two separate regions of mainly NA or EU. Especially now.
As for newly registered teams with unknown players or performance? How can we seed them if they don't even ask for seeding matches or really reach out? It's a guess by me when I look at players and when they register their NSL accounts and how many hours they have in game through steam.
At the end of the day, the seedings were determined and shaped through the community discussion. If WE got them wrong, then it falls to the community too. For the most part, except for a few outliers, the seedings were correct and approved by the community at the start of the season. Teams improve or sometimes perform above or below expectation.
Your outrage, Robby, is misplaced.
Golden answered the first half of this. Season 4 was off the heels of some of the most enthusiasm the competitive community had ever had. The NS2WC just wrapped up and everyone was feeling a rejuvenation to play. Season 5 starts with summer closing, historical the WORST time of year for game play. Is it a wonder that teams have been slow to sign up?
The second point, Tinki, regarding the regional playerbase. Is it really that surprising? The majority of sales for NS2 were in North America. Yes, your ratio suggests that there are less EU teams signed up. But if we actually look at the list, LESS teams signed up overall, but MORE NA teams signed up. Tilting your ratio. More below.
Also, changing the meta every week? That's a bit hyperbolic, considering there was ONE major revision during the season after the CompMod was started AND the next major revision (v3) was held off until after Season 4 was completed.
skyice, I never really know if we should take your posts seriously or not. Most of the time they seem rather contrived, bending on the sensational and inciteful rather than insightful and constructive. You never let a chance pass to give some snarky comment or jab, whether they are true or not... and for the most part, your comments are outright lies or you're absolutely unaware of what goes on in the community.
Transparency and communication - I'm assuming this is in regard to policy changes, CompMod, or anything NSL related. Every major policy change that I've instituted since I've taken over has been noted and presented to the community in front page news posts (when major) or forum posts (when minor). Seedings, Rules changes, Contests, website suggestions, etc. ALL have been posted and asked for commentary and suggestions. I often reply to many comments in my news posts also. I'm also usually available to field questions through Steam.
COMP MOD - I'm not really sure how much more communication and "transparency" there can be. Every change is noted in the changelogs with detailed reasons. When there is feedback, rantology and Dragon are consistently engaging everyone in discussion. We hold open Teamspeak meetings before every major revision to hear thoughts and ideas and complaints. There's lots of opportunities to shape the Comp Mod and as you've seen, even when the premier/high skilled players disagree with changes, there have been a compromise for the lower division players... especially apparent in the latest shade hive and lerk changes recently.
Your accusation of lack of transparency and communication is downright absurd and I'm actually pretty sick of hearing the community at large parrot that sentiment or seeing bits of your original post copy and pasted. There has never been a time in the NSL or NS2's development where your voice has been more listened to or responded to than now. It's disingenuous to say otherwise.
We live in the era where we're mostly faceless beings on the internet and information and truth is most valued in that anonymity. After getting games played. that's always been one of my goals for this league and what I always encourage the admins and staff towards. Make a decision or a post, leave your name behind. It's for accountability.
Lastly, let's talk about advertising sign ups. It's quite naive to discount overall player counts "There is no need to show the Steam activity graph" and not look at trends in the NS2 community (pub and comp) and gaming in general. What do you really expect in the day and age where you can buy bundles of games for a dollar, when there are Steam sales constantly, and AAA titles are released quarterly? It is nearly impossible to keep people interested and with fervency forever. As much as I want NS2 to keep getting better, and it is, and its community to grow and grow, there's already too much that went wrong with the development process. And while I don't believe it's impossible to turn the ship around, I don't think it's likely. And if we're honest with ourselves, the people who have been most ingrained in the community would admit this too. We are just at the end of the NS2 shelf life. Will there be a Season 6? If there's a demand for it, I will make it happen.
That said, I'm open to suggestions for making NS2 comp play more visible or well known in the community... and open to taking on volunteers to do it.
I'm pretty sure the OP is a complete copy paste from the google doc the french wrote for CDT, but it's been entertaining to read your response even though it was not meant for you in the first place. :D
I'd like more transparency to your soul, maybe start a blog!? That way we'll have some warning what you're going to be announcing for the NSL next!
Seesing matches are a tough but if you know for certain, as everyone knew, that a team doesn't belong in a division, just be a dick and move them somewhere else. Please.
Zefram, the outrage i felt first of all ended soon after season 4, so there's none of that left at all. It has been replaced with worry for the community as a whole though, which mostly is why i participate in topics in this forum, for that matter.
And second, as i wrote in my post, i don't know who's fault this was anyway, so there wasn't really any particular person that anger was directed at. I'm sure i speak for everyone here in that i'm grateful for your detailed explanation. When you face teams against which your own team didn't stand a chance, something feels awfully wrong, thus someone certainly should be responsible. As per your word, division placements are hardly without regulation. Finding out that season 4 apparently was the most successful of all seasons in terms of division placement doesn't help calm my worry. But as the system itself seems less than ideal, the people governing it are certainly not to for anyone to solely blame. I just want to make that absolutely clear if anyone reading my previous posts gets the wrong idea.
With that said, how about the ideas i mentioned to help improve this system? Considering some teams apparently flat-out refuse to even play seeding matches, i think something should be done.
And hark, as for the first time, i and Lots actually agree on something. *Space continuum rift* If teams refuse to go up or down a very obviously needed division change, i'd say force them to. It should not be up to greedy (or overly bold) bastards to ruin a whole damn division (or just themselves!) just to feel bigger and better (or masochistic!) at the end of the season.
But you should be aware there are many teams which ones change their roster during a season in progress. I'm not going to give any example to prove this but that's a fact. Many teams are a way different at the start of the season, for the regular season and just before the playoffs. That stuff makes harder to place every teams in the good division.
+ Zefram cannot know every team that sign up for each season, hence Admins and teams may give their opinion about this to make sure every teams are in the appropriate place.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.”
Ill admit that my use of hard hitting titles and my satirical writing style may make me come across as a bit of a dick but most of the time im not speaking out of line of a massive proportion of this community.
Maybe the ensl could do with fresh blood to help with new ideas. I honestly dont know why we don't have 4 or 5 ACTIVE ensl admins, a coordinator for each division ect so lower teams don't feel intimated by asking prems and all the divisions could run smoother.
We could have rookie/pub style gather nights and make it 8 v 8 or anything new like that.
Im sure there are loads of people out there willing to take on some of these roles.
Instead we have 2 webmasters 2 Gather admins a ts3 admin and social media admin... wtf kind of structure is that? The main point of the ensl is the season and it all lands in your inbox Zefram? or does being a webmaster give you power of the rules and runnings of competitive ns2 even if you dont play it anymore?
Basically i feel that the load of running this needy little community simply isn't spread over the right number of people and things could maybe be done more democratic and efficiently.
It's pretty simple Tinki, the rapid declination of players in NS2 is causing the competitive scene dying off very quickly as Golden said. There's no new players coming in and players still going out. Eventually there won't be enough people left to warrant any competition at all.
Trying to bitch about the NSL or Zefram or Dragon/Rant with CompMod is pretty unfounded.
Putting this on your fellow community members that are actually trying to still stick around and fight against the fact that the game is dying as a whole is outstandingly disgusting to me.
I'm disappointed (xD), my job is definitely more about make sure all the matches are referred + sometimes manage some stuff on TS3. But the last one is just to inform people there's someone to contact if any troubles or asks. (most of the time)
Maybe I've already mentioned that somewhere but I do not think getting 50 admins for each division is a good idea. That doesn't make sense if you're taking a look of the number of teams per division right away. A bigger competitive community and a higher amount of signing teams for the season could, maybe, make me change my opinion.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.”
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.”
Good luck getting 1 admin for each division. People come and go in this community constantly, and even if you find someone who may stick around, the chances of them actively contributing are about 0.0000001%. I don't think Zefram is actively turning DOWN help running the league, but more that no one else steps up to help.
Its easy to sit around the fire and talk about what SHOULD be done. Its far hard to actually back that up with action. I've been around the comp NS2 community for a long time, and there are very few people who actually step up and follow through with what they say.
I might add that it's not just the NS2 community, it's the whole gaming community combined. But due to the size of the NS2 community, you could compare it to a MMO guild or something like that. There's no point adding more people to govern over a group of people that is so small.
But i think we've gotten to the real problem now, it is clear to me now that it's all Pelargir's fault.
wasn't it a major fuckup because there was massive confusion with people overruling each other and no centralized communication? just tons of steam chat logs and drama?
All your 'points' have been categorically proven to be false. All your ideas are unfeasible or have been tried and failed.
where is this massive section of the community that agrees with you? why are they not contributing?
RIP ns2. Envy has moved on to other games and only playing the local league. CBF with high ping & weird game times anymore. GL to intent thou. win div 1.
It's sad to see the game declining the comp mod and changing meta is the only reason why i still jump on from time to time to play the local league.
What games are an actual option over there anyways? Not really familiar with any SEA action outside of the random sc2 or dota2 pro's floating around, they defo ain't australian though. :D
