This is the thread that just keeps on giving.

EDIT: RE RE RE RE RE RE, all of DIY's members are still around, why not??

wtf happening

Simple admitted to cheating before and after the match but says he did not cheat during the match. If his skill level was around the same for the match and for the scrim where he was found out 100% I would say that proves he was cheating in the play offs match.

lol the hack was broken for the finals guyz cmon!

Returning from the depths of fuck-this-shit-im-out, I say the gorge incident can be explained, and has been explained, pointed out by wob on page 2. If you are so singleminded only to look at simple and listen to crazy WTF'ing, then you need to rework your theory about your understanding of the game. If 2+2 dont equals 4 in your head, then heres the long calculation:

The lerks flappy wings in hub was soundscouted by herakles, who remained unscouted, due to his sneaky nature. The marines had more info than the aliens. Simple responds to the lerk in hub, base being open, and is forced to pull back - there is no alternative but a trade, and there isnt really anywhere he can make a worthwhile trade for the damage a lerk can do in the base, and spring and zafod is already doing all that can be done on the right side of the map. The only viable route of action is retreating, to stop the lerk. It wasn't even a misplay by LC or golden, as they didnt even know herakles knew about the lerk. If they did know that herakles soundscouted the lerk, it was a misplay or lack of communication by LC & co.

I hope this explains "the gorge incedent" to the point where it should never need to resurface in this discussion again.

As a side note, even a year ago, people took way too many things for granted - dont take things for granted, expect the NSL to do their part, and if they dont, refuse to play. If your claim as to why you wont play have any merit, there would be no punishment. But untill you start demanding NSL to do their part of hosting the competitive platform, its really hard to not end up in shitty situations, where its word against word. Because apart from simple admitting to cheats, and the new program to discover cheats, there appear to be almost nothing but worthless words taking form of self-gloryfication, outrage, threats of violence (which is enough reason for me to ban), mudthrowing, by involved parties, uninvolved parties, and a party of people who arent even involved in competitive play atm, rather than contribute with solid proof or other worthwhile information. The so called "community" loves itself some drama. IMO NSL should never have posted this without verdict and every aspect of the case being closed.

Ixian your missing the bigger picture. No one cares about explaining the gorge situation as it achieves nothing.

Simple was using hacks.

Whether he used them in the finals or not it doesn't matter.

We know He WAS using cheats in competitive NS2.

Ban him.
Strip him of his titles.
DIY no longer season 7 champions.

Common sense.

Its like saying Lance armstrong used performance enhancing drugs but we cant prove he used them in ALL his victorys so just strip him of 5 of his 7 tour de france titles.

But the diffence are the rules:
Lance Armstrong lost all his titles cause the rules said so.
The NSL Rules say: CURRENT season.

There is no current season running.

So D/Y is right by saying: we are the winners no matter a cheater was involved, cause there safe because the rules.
But to say "we knowed he was cheating but dont care aslong we are winning" if far away from the competitive spirit these people trying to tell us like an mantra.

In terms of sportsmanship they could say: "Well, sorry. We screwed it. We knowed simple was suspicious but let him play, Sorry about that and we givin the title to Lucky Chams"
But the last posts showed, this is never going to happen.

Why is everyone so concerned about it?
Blaming admins done nothing: everyone knows that the NSL is community driven, so players like you and me. not uwe or valve, you need tools given by one of them to prove. judging them is not fair and not necessary.
About the Finals: Why tells everyone so much about the final game? mostly none of you is even affected by it. if somebody can want a replay, a NC or a forfeit, its the team they played against. but none of them is whining like the most in here. its just words on a homepage and no 5000$ price or something.

He is a cheater, and admins are NOW able to prove. Be happy with it. Only thoughts who should be here are from admins, luckys, dyi or someone with a prove.

Ok let me chime in on the "we knew simple was cheating" malarkey.

We did NOT know simple was cheating. I made the decision to pick him up and convinced my team to agree. And I can explain my rationale.

There were whispers of simple cheating, and I knew the admins knew these rumours too. SIMPLE IS INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY AT THIS TIME. So I knew simple was under scrutiny and I thought that we could pick him up (because I assume innocence until proof of guilt like the societies we all love in) because he would either be a fantastic player or we could contribute to banning and kicking him out.

I MAINTAIN THAT I WOULD DO THIS TO ANYONE I FOUND CHEATING. I used to spec spring because I didn't believe he could improve that quickly and substantially. I would turn lamb, my oldest ns2 buddy in in a heartbeat if I found him cheating. But I give them the benefit of the doubt despite their quick rise to div 1 and have found nothing. I don't base who I play with on rumours because 99% of the time rumours turn out to be bullshit. I could accuse everyone of cheating and if I found just 1, accuse all their teammates of being complicit. That's just slanderous and that's how you start witch hunts. Everyone is innocent until proven guilty.

I sat out season 7 (with the exception of subbing in for match week 1 & 2) and most PCWs with the added intention of speccing simple when I was available. I saw his first 6 maps and sincerely thought he did not cheat. His aim was good and his positioning and decisions weren't up to scratch but I expected that coming from a div 2 team. Now remember, at this point simple is innocent until proven guilty. I convinced my team that he wasn't cheating, and I'm happy to put my reputation on the line for that. I now realise I must have made a mistake and I apologise to everyone in division 1, not least Lucky Chams.

All this proves is that I made a terrible judgement call on a player who I had suspicions of at first, but thought I had seen enough to convince myself he wasn't cheating. I must repeat that we had no idea he was cheating because I convinced myself and others on the team that he wasn't. I made a bad decision and the buck should stop at me, it is inherently wrong to defame the team and other players for my human mistake.

I have on record across my time with ensl proven I always try to do the right thing. Kilo, zefram, comp mod, cdt, comp mod 2.0, bubba. I even banned myself from gathers once when I tried to pull off an exploit (and did so successfully). I know I often come across as abrasive but I genuinely have good intentions at heart. I've spent hours trying to make players and teams better, and I thought I could help make simple a great player by improving his positioning and decision making. I also felt like in season 1-3 there was a massive incestuous pool of elite players making it hard for lower players to break into elite teams, and Ive always wanted to do the best to combat that, and after speccing simple and convincing myself he wasn't cheating, I thought this was a perfect example.


Call season 7 a no contest or a lucky chams win or a replay. Don't give shit to any other diy player. We now have proper investigations and tools on the admin team to be able to find cheaters in the future.

One last food for thought. How were we supposed to be any better at proving simple was cheating than anyone else before this new tool? It was always one word against another. You can always explain decisions and 1st person has always been shit. I gave him the benefit of the doubt and got it wrong, at least now he has been banned, and justice should be served with regards to the result.

Wob says

One last food for thought. How were we supposed to be any better at proving simple was cheating than anyone else before this new tool? It was always one word against another.

No BM intended, but simple's cheating was so blatant that you can throw the poor 1st person spec and poor decision making out the window. After playing against him in s6 and various gathers, it could not have been more obvious that he was cheating.

When he shot you with his pistol, all doubt disappeared.

dePARA says

So D/Y is right by saying: we are the winners no matter a cheater was involved, cause there safe because the rules.

And they can keep their victories with them if they insist on calling them that, in their memories. All i'm saying is that the *records* mustn't show this as it would damage the very foundation of competition. It would be insulting to the teams of the current and future competitions as their victories would be recorded into the same space as cheating "champions". It would also be unprecedented in terms of similar incidents occurring in the future; a person cheating throughout a tournament knowing full well that as long as he's not caught until some time after the tournament is over his records stay clean anyway. Forever recorded as a victor when everyone knows cheats could have been involved. It would be far more threatening to those thinking of cheating to make sure they're aware of cheating at any time will result in a wipe of your entire ENSL history. This is an excellent time for ENSL to show how it deals with cheaters, and potentially quell future attempts at cheating in the process.

This is also why the timing of using cheats don't enter into it. It's not the incident itself that matters, but the deceit of the person who committed it. It's the fact that this person decided to cheat and lie about it. That alone should be enough for any sensible person to realize that his entire history may very well be just as tainted and that he's only lying again when you ask him for more details. Simple cannot be trusted. He has caused a lot of harm to this community, and that harm will forever scar the records with uncertainty. To take the side of the benefit of doubt is to protect the criminal and to disrespect everyone else. That does nothing to improve neither the fair play of sports nor the unstable humors that already trouble this community.

This is bigger than DIY. All the other teams in the division are just as insulted by Simple's actions. Don't they deserve rectification? Herakles even admitted that they recruited Simple on the grounds of proving their suspicion of his cheating. This was both stupid and reckless and only strengthens their blame. They should pay the penalty.

By the very least Simple's name should be changed to "Simple (Cheater)" so that this is clearly visible on every page of the competition history. The integrity and purpose of every division in every season participated by Simple are as gone with the wind if the records are left as is.

Dean0 says

Why is everyone so concerned about it?

To be honest Dean0, if you don't care about any of this, i really don't understand what you're doing here. It's like being a chef in a restaurant and not caring if someone takes a shit in the bowl you're about to serve to your customers, and then wondering what they're complaining about. As difficult as it may be to understand sometimes, you have to remember that ENSL is supposed to be the supreme community of competitive NS gaming. This is the one place where NS gaming *should* be taken very seriously. And no competition can be taken seriously if the record-keeping isn't respected.

You're asking people to change their feelings just because you can't understand them. That's probably not the best idea you've had today considering that you're surrounded by people who live and breathe competition.

Wob says

One last food for thought. How were we supposed to be any better at proving simple was cheating than anyone else before this new tool? It was always one word against another. You can always explain decisions and 1st person has always been shit. I gave him the benefit of the doubt and got it wrong, at least now he has been banned, and justice should be served with regards to the result.

Evilbot was banned because of video and first person spec recordings. If he could be banned for cheating from the same "shit" spec system, there is no reason simple should have been unable to be banned the same way. Just because he was playing at a higher level and also an admin should be no reason to not bother to use those methods, if they worked before they should be more than acceptable to ban someone else.

I don't need to see cheating proof to tell you the guy played like a bot, looked at the floor most of the time, stared straight at what he was building with no need for awareness on doors. His terrible play meant that even with a wallhack and aimbot the guy still lost engagements he shouldn't have ever lost.
The videos are so obvious as of late, I would really like to see any first person spec from his time with diy, maybe he played legit, although I highly doubt that.

Cr4zy says

Wob says

One last food for thought. How were we supposed to be any better at proving simple was cheating than anyone else before this new tool? It was always one word against another. You can always explain decisions and 1st person has always been shit. I gave him the benefit of the doubt and got it wrong, at least now he has been banned, and justice should be served with regards to the result.

Evilbot was banned because of video and first person spec recordings. If he could be banned for cheating from the same "shit" spec system, there is no reason simple should have been unable to be banned the same way. Just because he was playing at a higher level and also an admin should be no reason to not bother to use those methods, if they worked before they should be more than acceptable to ban someone else.

I don't need to see cheating proof to tell you the guy played like a bot, looked at the floor most of the time, stared straight at what he was building with no need for awareness on doors. His terrible play meant that even with a wallhack and aimbot the guy still lost engagements he shouldn't have ever lost.
The videos are so obvious as of late, I would really like to see any first person spec from his time with diy, maybe he played legit, although I highly doubt that.

cr4zy we played vs DIY when simple just joined DIY on nexus with wob spec and he shot 45-48% when the rest of DIY were ALL UNDER 30%

Cr4zy says

there is no reason simple should have been unable to be banned the same way. Just because he was playing at a higher level and also an admin should be no reason to not bother to use those methods, if they worked before they should be more than acceptable to ban someone else.

I completely agree with this with the exception that there's a basic assumption that both players used cheats the same way.

I now believe simple must have been toggling on and off and I just so happened to miss the toggle fights.

Cr4zy says

I don't need to see cheating proof to tell you the guy played like a bot, looked at the floor most of the time, stared straight at what he was building with no need for awareness on doors.

I disagree with this. When I played with him and specced him I never felt like this was some poor AI. I thought he was just div 2 skill in those regards and could improve.

Cr4zy says

His terrible play meant that even with a wallhack and aimbot the guy still lost engagements he shouldn't have ever lost.

Or he was toggling and it was hard to detect using first person / over head views.

Cr4zy says

The videos are so obvious as of late, I would really like to see any first person spec from his time with diy, maybe he played legit, although I highly doubt that.

Link?

Robby says

Herakles even admitted that they recruited Simple on the grounds of proving their suspicion of his cheating. This was both stupid and reckless and only strengthens their blame. They should pay the penalty.

Read my comment: It was one of two options, either he was going to turn into a fantastic player who could win div 1 over and over, or he was a cheater who we thought we might be able to help bust.

This is true of any player.

People had suspicions of spring, yet we still picked him up.

It would be a completely different story if we categorically KNEW he was cheating and picked him up regardless. Because we didn't know, it was neither stupid, reckless, or makes us liable to blame.

Sadly I don't think most people have the knowledge to look for an aimbot using first person spectate. Anything that isn't a complete trash one will look somewhat human at this point, gone are the days of snapping to bones in the model and other crazy obvious stuff. You need to look at how a person aims in general... How they trace targets, how much of an arc they have in their tracing, how they position themselves to known attacks and how they handle 'unknown' ones... crosshair placement, positioning in a room, angles they prefer for tracking targets and angles they struggle with... and a million other small things. I watched 1 video of simple playing and knew right away he was cheating. So many things which people might classify as stupid or a 'cheat' might be someones preference too. When you watch someone, you need to watch the small things they do, things most people do subconsciously... Those are the things which will often times give away a cheater.

Just do a No Contest over Season 7. Simple's team should not get a win because of the potential for cheating. The Onus is not on the ENSL to prove he WAS cheating, but rather on the team to prove that he WASN'T cheating.

Don't give Lucky Chams the title either. You can't prove that we would have deserved it, and you can't prove that the other teams we would have competed against in place of DIY wouldn't have beaten us for the title.

Simba says

Just do a No Contest over Season 7. Simple's team should not get a win because of the potential for cheating. The Onus is not on the ENSL to prove he WAS cheating, but rather on the team to prove that he WASN'T cheating.

Don't give Lucky Chams the title either. You can't prove that we would have deserved it, and you can't prove that the other teams we would have competed against in place of DIY wouldn't have beaten us for the title.

agreed, qft.

Simba says

The Onus is not on the ENSL to prove he WAS cheating, but rather on the team to prove that he WASN'T cheating.

Before I say this I want to state that I'm in 100% agreement with you. I think a no contest should be enforced and if people want it, a rematch.

Just 1 thing... I wish people wouldn't pose the "you need to prove X wasn't" argument.

If I said a naturally green, bipedal mouse lived in my home and talked to me, you couldn't prove me wrong, ever, regardless of how ludicrous it seems... you simply cannot prove me wrong... its impossible... it is MY job to prove me RIGHT... you cannot ever "prove" the absence of anything, so in this situation it is on the accuser to prove that the cheats were there in the first place.

We know that simple cheated, he admitted it, he was caught using cheats etc... therefore every act he has ever done in a round will be scrutinized and things that many people wouldn't consider suspicious with a high skill player will look like evidence of cheating due to hindsight... reasonable doubt is abolished with the admittance of cheating... therefore it is impossible to "prove" that he wasn't cheating, because there will always be doubt.

Again, I DO agree with you, the match should be made a no contest, I just have an issue with the "prove X" argument.

+1 SIMBA

After discussing this at length with the admin team we have decided to make the Season 7 Division 1 Finals a No Contest. The Hall of Fame and the playoffs will be altered to make this official.
We have also passed this through the two team captains involved(Simba and Herakles) and they agreed to this.

We will also be locking this topic.