I'm a mediocre fade at best and understand that my skill plays a part in this, if I were a better fade this would be less of an issue.
It's common wisdom that engaging a Shotgun as a Fade is a risk. I think it's way too risky.
A Fade costs 35 pres.
A Shotgun costs 20 pres.
Also consider in general aliens accumulate pres slower than marines and the Shotgun is recoverable.
In general I'd say any shotgun lost within 1 room of an IP/PG/marine is recovered most of the time.
Without meds, it usually takes 3/4 swipes to kill a marine.
As a Shotgun it usually takes 3 good shots to kill a Fade.
Considering the cons that go with evolving as Fade, low structure damage, large hitbox, shouldn't they stand a better chance against a Shotgun?
My suggestion would be that default Fade armor should be closer to that of a Carapaced Fade.
I'm curious as to what people think the average win rate for a Fade vs Shotgun is, and if that win-rate is considered balanced when the costs of Fade and Shotgun are compared, the impact of meds during the fight and the fact that the Shotgun can be recovered.
I often feel that going fade is a waste, the class brings very little to a team except its ability to fight Shotguns, and then one unlucky engagement later, you get instagibbed and wait another 5-10mins to Fade again, while many of the Shotguns you did kill get recirculated.
The truth is, I think the shotgun is the real problem, I think it is the single most important upgrade in the game, and are over powered, but I have no idea on how to change them, and it gets complicated very quickly. So it's why I suggest improving the shotgun counter, fades...
No doubt if I was as good a fade as lome or whoever this would be less of an issue, but even then I've seen players of that level get melted vs a single shotgun, without making any mistakes, just the marine was on point with his shots.
P.S. I've heard rumors of UWE working on "immortal fades" which makes me worry an actual fade nerf is incoming, which is insane...
For The Lolz
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My suggestion was pretty much ignored by the general competitive community... but this is an issue that does need addressing... apparently people think altering the medpack is a good way to make shotguns less OP... ( The thread where I originally posted this. http://www.ensl.org/topics/1667 )
My suggestion is to alter how OP shotguns are by doing the following.
- reduce amount of pellets per shot to 13 (down from 17)
- increase the amount of shots per clip to 8 (up from 6)
- reduce the delay between shots to 0.6 seconds (down from 0.72) (this would need testing and potentially altering)
This would result in the same Damage Per Second, but a reduction in the burst damage that makes SGs so strong... you would still be able to 1 shot a skulk, if you are a good shot you will still do the same amount of damage as you normally would, it would just be spread out a little more giving the alien lifeforms a little bit more time to react and respond accordingly.
"Out with the gorge, into the ready room" F4 - iSay
Alski Syndrome
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Fades are supposed to be pushed back by shotguns. That's why you need Team play / group engagements to clear shotguns. Also fades have a pretty good chance to win fights vs shotguns in a 1v1 just don't stay in until you die lol but heal and engage again. I don't see a problem with fades at the moment.
agree on that, and dont forgett to have lerks in your back. :}
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I've always wanted fades to have more health, I don't think they're in a perfect place for 1v1 engagements with shotguns or LMGs, but they are pretty well balanced for teamfights so I can't say it's worth changing.
The best fades just know their map intimately and how to make sure geometry takes as many shots as possible instead of themselves, they know the minimum timing between shotgun shells firing and can naturally use that as a timer for their blinks. There's just plenty of things like that you need to learn. Mechanics and game knowledge have to come together
Actually this entire thread is cancer and so is the foundation of your argument Paddy.
Learn to play.
I'm not going to bother elaborating more because thats just too much to type.
I hate being this blunt and arrogant about it but its true.
EDIT: i just read this part
"but even then I've seen players of that level get melted vs a single shotgun, without making any mistakes, just the marine was on point with his shots."
without making any mistakes,
without making any mistakes,
without making any mistakes, without making any mistakes,
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Snoofed
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fades are immortal guys what are you TALKING ABOUT
Goðar
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When it comes to balance fades vs shotguns are fine. The main issue in most scenarios is simply the lack of teamplay and players not understanding how to play aliens properly. Buffing the current hp by even just 10hp will make a huge impact on his survivability and should not be underestimated.
I do however agree that playing fade in ns2 is not as satisfactorily as it was playing fade in ns1. The fade could take more hits and felt more powerful making it more fun to play. I have said so many times before having a fun game is more important than balance but making this change would require chain of other changes to prevent aliens from having a huge advantage.
From my experience players are simply too afraid to move comp mod away from vanilla ns2 even though vanilla ns2 is never go to do the big changes that are required for the game to feel fresh and reach its full potential.
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There are 2 things that make up a good fade...
-mechanical skill (swipe accuracy and movement)
-decision making
Most fades can pick up on the mechanical part by watching better fades and practicing. The decision making is what separates good fades from average ones. People have to understand their impact on the current situation, when to engage, when to leave, time it takes to heal and join a fight again, etc.
It seems that this thread is based around the 1v1 shotgun engagement. You can't balance the fade around this. The SG engagement comes down to who makes more mistakes (granted both parties fight to the death). Good marines will punish any mistakes you make in the engagement and a good fade will punish a missed SG blast. If you don't feel confident enough in your mechanical skill, It's often much safer to engage, get your 2 swipes and leave... then come back or send a skulk to finish them off with a quick 2 bite.
Buffing fade HP for the 1v1 engagement would change the dynamics of team fights as well which is where fades become their most powerful.
Fades are good where they are as far as current balance goes. If people wanted to experiment with a high hp fade ala NS1, we would need to rebalance the SG as well as the other lifeforms hp values. (which could be fun to try tbh).
TL;DR, I'm all for mixing it up by changing lifeform values in a drastic way but tweaking the values for current balance is not needed.
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+1 on drastic changes for +fun
Don't get me wrong.
I completely understand that 1vs1 fade / sg balance is irrelevant and that you have to increase your chances of survival with (good) team engagements.
I understand that should not blink into a sg, who is directly facing you, just waiting for to enter meat blast range.
However, I've still died so many times, even though I thought I did everything properly, that I've grown so conservative, that it seems to be limiting me.
More often than not, I feel completely useless in engagements, because I'm so afraid of shotguns, that I don't want to commit to swiping and end up dealing no damage.
I'm so focused on not dying, that I can't focus on dealing damage, but that's probably just me.
+1 to drastic changes, though. Bring back BT mod.
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A low impact fade that lives through the entire game is much more useful than a short lived high impact fade.
