play alpha game competitively LOL self-troll

just fired ns2 up for 5 mins. sweet zombie jebus, the interface in the x-series is better!

at least opening the bindings menu made me laugh. that's a joke right? not even the hint of a concept?

ok, let me tell you about a secret technique that made games on consoles not only playable but enjoyable.
here's your chance at being the first ones to properly implement it on the pc ->
ring-menus.

yep, ring-menus.



looks easy right?
pressing (E) opens it up and magically closes it again.
you got 8 entries that can be easily selected using your movement keys (WASD).

protip: this is what all the others did wrong! fuck off with the mouse! the mouse has NOTHING to do with selecting shit!
the mouse will simply AIM, even with the menu open! use the movement keys as digipad!

wow, seems like we could control everything with binding a 2nd menu, e.g. buildmenu, on (Q)

that leaves us with:
WASD - move/select
QE - buildmenu/gestatemenu - requests/taunts
TZ - or whatever for say/teamsay
Mouse1 - fire
Mouse2 - alternate
Mouse3 - CHUKLE
TAB - score

protip: (E) when facing something usable, uses it instead of opening the menu. another useless key saved!

stealing ideas is fun! espeacially when done properly.
well, there you go, you got a game thats easy to play and feels modern and comfortable!
now rearrange the bindings-menu and move everything but the above under a shortcut section (e.g. request med, drop oc, etc.) and you're done -> drink a beer and enjoy how fun it is to playtest now.

Cool idea saebel (i <3 you too ^^)
Maybe post it on UWE's forum, that might work better. IF you double check gramma etc. and being a little more serious about it. To make people be serious towards your opinion ;)
BUT! The evolvemenu have already been remade for the next patch. And I think they did something similar, so maybe wait a few days and check it out again. They are trying to get the patch out on friday :)

meb -> It's in beta, and have been that since august(? or close) last year. Also, the first pcw's are already being played. Other than that, people are trying to get some gather systems up, but don't have the resources, but ENSL do. Cups are being planned. I would call that competetive. So many people troll NS2, I really don't get the reason. I started playing NS1 because of NS2 sometime last year, I know they gave a release date(fall 09) for the NS2 MOD(NOT the stand-alone GAME, as it is now) on source. They scrapped that, and began to make something much better, which is the current NS2, which is still under development. But you can just keep saying; "NS2 is never gonna be anything, lets stick with NS1. Trolololo" for what I care. People want this. You "NS1 Pros" should start realizing it aswell instead of just being a so-called "hater" for no reason. I understand your bitterness for the waiting time, but NS2 is getting there. And getting better and better with each patch. I also noticed that development have speeded up ALOT over the past 6 months. Pretty sure it's because they hired a few more people.

if i can't be sarcastic/cynical ... well i just don't see the point of beer then.

i'm still thinking about how to implement upgrades.
could be done via submenus adding one press of a button on each.

more than 2 menubuttons would simply counter the concept of a smooth and lazy interface.



still im thinking. whereto with those annoying tips and infos we so much need for beginners?

hm, if you split the info up, you won't run into probs with the centered menu:


yeah, this with an option to turn tips off could work just fine.

'swalk'It's in beta
It doesn't matter what UWE calls it, when the actual state of the game is what you would expect from an alpha.

'swalk'So many people troll NS2
Who?

'swalk'I know they gave a release date(fall 09) for the NS2 MOD(NOT the stand-alone GAME, as it is now) on source.
No, the fall 09 schedule had no connection to source. It didn't even have a connection with reality, but that's a different matter.

'swalk'"NS2 is never gonna be anything, lets stick with NS1. Trolololo"
No, nobody's said that.

'swalk'instead of just being a so-called "hater" for no reason.
Who are you talking to? Maybe you're posting in the wrong thread?

I always need to aim when I'm evolving to a different lifeform - please implement Saebel's great idea!

'Saebelzahnelefant'

Best skulk and gorge picture I've ever seen! Much love saebelstiltzkin! <3

if you say so i shall alter my avatar then.
just remember that no matter how cute it looks, it will still rape you!

tl/dr, but i like the drawings.

it could be a good idea to be one of the first in europe to start organising ns2 cups, or someone else will form some kind of league.

'Fana'
It doesn't matter what UWE calls it, when the actual state of the game is what you would expect from an alpha.

If you would expect a feature complete, nearly ready to launch game to be this little companys beta. You have the wrong expectations. I've seen several games and mods that have had even more buggy betas.
UWE != EA etc.
In the world of developing games, size does matter. And they are doing fine compared to their companys size.

'swalk'So many people troll NS2
'Fana'Who?
Just look at some of the posts here, and people on the UWE's forums. That should be obvious.

'swalk'I know they gave a release date(fall 09) for the NS2 MOD(NOT the stand-alone GAME, as it is now) on source.
'Fana'No, the fall 09 schedule had no connection to source. It didn't even have a connection with reality, but that's a different matter.
Is that true? Or just another troll? It seemed much like they gave a release date for the source mod, and then changed their minds. But thats just what I can see a few years later. I didn't know NS2 at that moment, and only very little about NS1.

'swalk'"NS2 is never gonna be anything, lets stick with NS1. Trolololo"
'Fana'No, nobody's said that.
Maybe not directly, but with people trolling NS2 so much in the ways that they do, they are implying it.

'swalk'instead of just being a so-called "hater" for no reason.
'Fana'
Who are you talking to? Maybe you're posting in the wrong thread?

I'm talking to the general masses of trolls. u MAD? ;)

More on topic: It could be nice to see a post from jiriki on this one again, if this can be done at some point(and when?), since he's the only one with access to do it? :)

Edit: Saebel, MC/DC/SCs are not built by the gorge in NS2, but by the alien commander. And they have new names: Shift/Crag/Shade

'swalk'Is that true? Or just another troll? It seemed much like they gave a release date for the source mod, and then changed their minds. But thats just what I can see a few years later. I didn't know NS2 at that moment, and only very little about NS1.

From the NS2 twitter, May 2009:
'NS2 Twitter'
We got in Gameplayer's top 10 hottest games of 2010 (little do they know we're 2009): http://bit.ly/XsVfv #fb

This is definitely on the new engine, no matter how you twist the interpretation. Anyone is free to make their own interpretation out of the fall 2009 and what was promised, but I don't like the idea of calling negative interpretations trolling. Had it been any other company in the world I would've pulled a refund a long while ago and probably sworn to never ever preorder anything from the same company ever again.

'swalk'
If you would expect a feature complete, nearly ready to launch game to be this little companys beta. You have the wrong expectations. I've seen several games and mods that have had even more buggy betas.
UWE != EA etc.

Feature complete is the very defition of beta if there ever is one (there really isn't though, lucky for UWE), regardless if it's a promotional late beta or an 'actual' beta. A laggy piece of garbage can be beta, but it's still supposed to be a feature complete piece of garbage. Meanwhile UWE didn't even have their core gameplay elements (Lifeforms, half of the tech tree) when beta kicked in. Even the 'killer feature' DI wasn't there and now it's a prototype version without any set purpose.

'swalk'
In the world of developing games, size does matter. And they are doing fine compared to their companys size.

Is size some kind of excuse? They've chosen by their own free will to make a project of this magnitude and schedule. If I claim to code an OS in a day and fail, is it a valid excuse that I'm just one guy doing the coding?

If anything, I'd expect smaller teams to have better idea of their schedule and resoucres, since the whole project is supposed to stay on a lot more manageable level.

---

I don't mean this post as any kind of direct UWE SUXXX!!!11 argument. However, I don't like the idea that people pretend or think that UWE hasn't been walking a very fine line on a couple of occassions. At least for me it's less about wondering whether something has gone wrong and more about deciding where to draw the line and when they've crossed it bad enough that I no longer want to support the development.

'Bacillus'
From the NS2 twitter, May 2009:
We got in Gameplayer's top 10 hottest games of 2010 (little do they know we're 2009): http://bit.ly/XsVfv #fb
That link doesn't show anything about NS2, no screenshots or anything.

'Bacillus'
This is definitely on the new engine, no matter how you twist the interpretation. Anyone is free to make their own interpretation out of the fall 2009 and what was promised, but I don't like the idea of calling negative interpretations trolling. Had it been any other company in the world I would've pulled a refund a long while ago and probably sworn to never ever preorder anything from the same company ever again.

Is that something you know, and not just assuming? I mean, are you sure that was the new engine? And where is the proof? I can see they made a fuckup with that release date, but still, if they decided to have it on their own engine about that point, I think that they are excused.

'Bacillus'
Feature complete is the very defition of beta if there ever is one (there really isn't though, lucky for UWE), regardless if it's a promotional late beta or an 'actual' beta. A laggy piece of garbage can be beta, but it's still supposed to be a feature complete piece of garbage. Meanwhile UWE didn't even have their core gameplay elements (Lifeforms, half of the tech tree) when beta kicked in. Even the 'killer feature' DI wasn't there and now it's a prototype version without any set purpose.

First of all, as you say, there is no definition of betas, in terms of completion. I know that most of the huge companys out there hand out "beta's" that are almost feature complete and fully working. But UWE are not one of those big companys. If you expected a beta similar to the starcraft2 beta, you simply haven't done your research good enough, and thats your own fault. But, they make refunds for those chases.
Hell, you can even play the game if you find a decent server. I've got about 150 hours ingame in NS2, just for the testing and fun part of it. I've had alot of great games when the servers were able to handle it.

'Bacillus'
Is size some kind of excuse? They've chosen by their own free will to make a project of this magnitude and schedule. If I claim to code an OS in a day and fail, is it a valid excuse that I'm just one guy doing the coding?

Why do you see that as an excuse? An excuse for what? Yes, they are a small team that decided to make a first-class RTS/FPS hybrid. That takes time.. Still that release date was a fuckup, and they know it.

'Bacillus'
If anything, I'd expect smaller teams to have better idea of their schedule and resoucres, since the whole project is supposed to stay on a lot more manageable level.

Not in this case. It's their first big game. First time is always the hardest, and you might have problems with schedule, which is already hard to predict when coding. You simply never know what kind of problems you can get, and you have to find a way to get them fixed. That takes alot of time.

'Bacillus'
I don't mean this post as any kind of direct UWE SUXXX!!!11 argument. However, I don't like the idea that people pretend or think that UWE hasn't been walking a very fine line on a couple of occassions. At least for me it's less about wondering whether something has gone wrong and more about deciding where to draw the line and when they've crossed it bad enough that I no longer want to support the development.
This is exactly what I mean about trolling NS2, they put out a release date a few years ago, that they obviously couldn't make. If you think that they have crossed your line, by putting the game in their own engine and simply making it better that way. You should have gotten your refund a long time ago, if thats how you feel. Thats a personal choice. Still development is speeding up, as you can see on the progress tracker for the next patch. Alot of huge changes and additions will be in the next patch.
I just don't get why people keep going on about that release date in 09. Thats two years ago now. And still, its mentioned almost daily on their forums, and even here.

'swalk'Is that something you know, and not just assuming? I mean, are you sure that was the new engine? And where is the proof?
Proof? You want proof? Fuck you, learn to trust your betters. If you can't do that, at least try to use your brain, type some words into google and IDK, maybe you'll find an answer ALL ON YOUR OWN.

You know what though? I have a weak spot for useless tits, so here you go: http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns/news/2008/10/unknown_worlds_videocast_5

The 2009 "release" date wasn't even an issue here, the only reason it became one is because you DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT ANYTHING which leads to you posting SHIT THAT IS WRONG.

Maybe you should just say "I'm sorry" and stop posting?

'swalk'
Is that something you know, and not just assuming? I mean, are you sure that was the new engine? And where is the proof? I can see they made a fuckup with that release date, but still, if they decided to have it on their own engine about that point, I think that they are excused.

If you bother to do any research you can see they were talking about occlusion culling for their engine, demonstrating their lighting effects on their own engine and all that BEFORE that tweet. They first marketed the preorders by demonstrating how the spark lighting works. I don't think there was ever any kind of talk about source preorders.

'swalk'
First of all, as you say, there is no definition of betas, in terms of completion. I know that most of the huge companys out there hand out "beta's" that are almost feature complete and fully working. But UWE are not one of those big companys. If you expected a beta similar to the starcraft2 beta, you simply haven't done your research good enough, and thats your own fault. But, they make refunds for those chases.

First of all, I didn't expect a beta, I preordered way before there was any talk of beta.

You agree that there's no definition and then you tell me to do research and treat a big company beta like they're not right betas... Any research I could do wouldn't prepare me for NS2 beta. As a couple of software professionals have pointed out, NS2 is not a beta by any of their definions either, it's a weird UWE beta. That's fine, it's not illegal to call it a beta, but I think it's once again twisting the trade ethics a bit. Walking a fine line if you ask me. I can definitely understand where they're coming with this with all the financing stuff, but it's not nice nevertheless.

'swalk'
Why do you see that as an excuse? An excuse for what? Yes, they are a small team that decided to make a first-class RTS/FPS hybrid. That takes time.. Still that release date was a fuckup, and they know it.



'swalk'
In the world of developing games, size does matter. And they are doing fine compared to their companys size.


Depends on what do you mean by 'And they are doing fine compared to their companys size.'. I thought it was kind of an excuse there. If it wasn't I don't know what it was.

'swalk'
Still that release date was a fuckup, and they know it.

Yes, it's a fuckup. I think almost everyone let it go back then. Then there was some new slight fuckups with the alpha phase, then the beta fuckups. To some extend they improve, but it's in no way a pretty development process all the way. Like I said, it's up to everyone to decide themselves where they want to draw the line, I don't think the indie gaming industry still has any clear rules or ethics either way.

I've got quite a lot of understanding for people still wanting to support UWE (I haven't withdrawn my preorder despite being quite certain the game isn't heading the way I like), but I've also got a plenty of understanding for people who are fed up with this.

'swalk'
Still development is speeding up, as you can see on the progress tracker for the next patch. Alot of huge changes and additions will be in the next patch.

This has been said since probably some early alphas. It's a nice thing, but the reality is that at least nobody outside UWE knows when and how the development speeds up if it speeds up at any point. The fact that it might not speed up doesn't bother me on bit as much as people that keep repeating it patch after patch.

'swalk'I just don't get why people keep going on about that release date in 09. Thats two years ago now. And still, its mentioned almost daily on their forums, and even here.

I'm taking a guess, but I think a pretty big reason why people keep repeating is the fact that it's the only release date they've got. If we now assume that it has been the spark engine all the way (I think you can piece it together from old UWE newsposts for example): In some ways the game seemed more complete two years ago than it seems now. The release date gave the game a clear direction that is now lost. I don't think it's nice to keep spewing it to UWE's face too much, but then again I think it's pretty awkward customer-developer relation to have 'Have patience'/'Good things come to those who wait' as the only explanation for a product that is over a year late. Imagine doing that to your customer in any other branch of business.

---

And to clarify once again: My preorder is still in. I want UWE to succeed. However, hanging on this long hasn't been all sunshine and happiness for me and I know people who think similarly at least on some things UWE has done. I feel it's a lot better to discuss these things through and possibly improve them rather than pretending that everything is going perfect and nobody is ever going to get fed up and get a refund.

Post Scriptum thingy or something: Heh yeh, Fana basically put in what I was saying to myself when I first read your post. Anyway, I wrote the slightly longer answer, which you can read above.

Essay tennis is contagious.

Advantage, Bacillus.

You really seem to love making personal attacks on the internet Fana. That's just inappropiate. Maybe you should go see a shrink or something. I wasn't offending you in any way. No way that im gonna tell you that "im sorry". You can go act like that in real life, see how that works for your sorroundings. Didn't your parents at least teach you some manners? Don't go thinking that you are better than everyone just because your behind a monitor. There is simply no need for this nearly violent tone of yours. Try a more civilized approach for the internet, instead of the primate way.

But at least thanks for the clarification about the spark engine and the release date. I understand this frustration you guys have alot more now.

'Bacillus'
You agree that there's no definition and then you tell me to do research and treat a big company beta like they're not right betas...


That was not what I wrote, betas are betas, ie. not finished. I told you if you expect the quality of a beta from a small indie game developer to be the same as big comanys betas, its your own fault for not doing that research of company size, its pure logic. More people, more work put in it.
Other than that, I like the development style they have chosen, that let us play and test the game as they make it. That is brilliant in my eyes, and I haven't seen that type of development much. You always just get a finished game in your hands. This way they can take critic and suggestions from their playerbase while making the game. While other developers just dont care about such a thing. They just build a game behind closed doors till it's done, or very close to being done. And then release it to the public, they dont take much influence from their players or anything like it. Thats what I like about this beta compared to others.

'Bacillus'
This has been said since probably some early alphas. It's a nice thing, but the reality is that at least nobody outside UWE knows when and how the development speeds up if it speeds up at any point. The fact that it might not speed up doesn't bother me on bit as much as people that keep repeating it patch after patch.

I know people repeat this much, but still, there is some kind of truth behind it. They have gotten a few more employees in the last half year. And you can see it "on paper", the next patch have about 3-4 times as many changes as the past patches, and the its quite possible that its not the full list of changes.
Anyway, here is the link: http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/progress

But still, I'd like to see a update from jiriki about the NS2 gather system, maybe with a timeframe of when it can be done. It would benefit both ENSL and NS2 alot, to get it up and running. Because I dont think that there are others that can offer what ENSL can, for the moment.

It is fun how a suggestive thread which actually had really good intentions behind it and a good idea became a flamewar ...Way to go Community !!

Oh and the only interesting tennsi will be tomorrow Nadal vs. Federer Roland Garos finals .. NICE !

So be nice to each other kids 8) !

Greets your beloved Austrian !

you just wait till the ns2-gather-system get's set up.
for every guy joining it there will be 100 flames in the chat :D

'swalk'You really seem to love making personal attacks on the internet Fana. That's just inappropiate. Maybe you should go see a shrink or something. I wasn't offending you in any way. No way that im gonna tell you that "im sorry". You can go act like that in real life, see how that works for your sorroundings. Didn't your parents at least teach you some manners? Don't go thinking that you are better than everyone just because your behind a monitor. There is simply no need for this nearly violent tone of yours. Try a more civilized approach for the internet, instead of the primate way.


WHERE THE FUCK DO YOU THINK YOU ARE? The 'primate way' is the only reason people still come here.

'sublime'
WHERE THE FUCK DO YOU THINK YOU ARE? The 'primate way' is the only reason people still come here.
And thats the sad part of it, new members of the community won't feel welcome. And thats gonna be a problem when NS2 really begins to attract new players. Admins should take care of this bullshit instead of ignoring it.

Hey i alrdy said be nice to each other i also pointed out that you ppl are not on topic anymore ... but i am not interested in deleting all your posts ..

If ppl do not want to be "the best" they can be ... i wont force them to be .. cause lets face it it wouldnt be them anymore and ppl would not realize that they should NEVER EVER EVEN TALK TO THEM !

you see where i am going? ... if you dont like someone just dont talk to him .. it will make you so much happier !

'jiriki'Essay tennis is contagious.

eistee. y dont you go out and make love to a tree? fucking hippie!

'swalk'You really seem to love making personal attacks on the internet Fana. That's just inappropiate. Maybe you should go see a shrink or something. I wasn't offending you in any way. No way that im gonna tell you that "im sorry". You can go act like that in real life, see how that works for your sorroundings. Didn't your parents at least teach you some manners? Don't go thinking that you are better than everyone just because your behind a monitor. There is simply no need for this nearly violent tone of yours. Try a more civilized approach for the internet, instead of the primate way.
First you cry about me making "personal attacks" and then, already in the next sentence, you suggest I go see a shrink and all sorts of other insults. Do you have dissociative identity disorder or are you just a natural hypocrite?

I shouldn't have to remind you that you started this entire farce by calling my opinion "obsolete and unnessesary" (by the way, if you're going to continue subjecting us to huge essays of more or less meaningless content, could you at least run it through a spell checker first so we don't have to fight our way through your terrible English too?).

Or hey, how about that time I corrected your factual errors and you responded by accusing me of trolling? Good times!

'swalk'But at least thanks for the clarification about the spark engine and the release date. I understand this frustration you guys have alot more now. (...)

That was not what I wrote, betas are betas, ie. not finished. I told you if you expect the quality of a beta from a small indie game developer to be the same as big comanys betas, its your own fault for not doing that research of company size, its pure logic.
The topic of debate in this thread doesn't have anything to do with frustration (I'm not frustrated in the least) or expectations. The only reason the 2009 "release" was brought up, was because you stupidly posted without checking your facts first. All that matters is the current state of the game.

I don't have the time, and certainly not the interest, to continue reading through and responding to all your fanboy drivel, but I can elaborate a bit on what I posted earlier:

Currently, NS2 is far too unfinished to work as a competitive game (gathers, which are basically organized pub games, is a different matter though). In my opinion, the ENSL shouldn't organize lulzy "competitions" for a game that isn't ready for it yet. Given some time, maybe as little as half a year, it might be balanced enough and have enough features to make it viable for some random cups or whatever.

I think UWE has every opportunity to make NS2 a great game. So far however, they've shown very little that makes me personally interested in it. NS2 lacks many of the features that made me love playing NS and the new features -- both the ones already implemented and the ones that are planned -- do nothing for me. There's always the chance things will look different in a year or so though.

It seems like they're reverting some of the plainly retarded changes (such as needing 3 bases for T3 upgrades), so perhaps it will become worthwhile, but I'm not keeping my hopes up.


Quite frankly I couldn't give a shit though - there's plenty of other excellent games coming soon - and £30 for the follow-up to a game which was free that I played for thousands of hours seems perfectly fair.

'sublime'£30 for the follow-up to a game which was free that I played for thousands of hours seems perfectly fair.
No doubt, the money shouldn't be an issue for NS veterans.

What sub said.

dont stop flaming now, we got time to kill till the duke hits the shelves!

Well, any plans on making NS2 gathers here on ENSL, jiriki?
As you can see in the thread, people are playing, and starting up their own NS2 gather sites:
http://philaeux.ns5-wistee.fr/ns2gather/public/
And these gathers are actually pcws but im quite sure that it would attract people if gathers were held here on ENSL.