Complaints:
-GL's are too easy to kill lifeforms (particularly Lerks). This comes down to how hard it is to dodge a grenade because it feels like the grenade is the size of a bowling ball and comes at you very quick.
-GL's do too much structure damage. Right now it does about 4% of a fully matured hive and takes 27 total grenades to kill a hive. Plus with the splash damage you can clear heavy PvE very easily.

and Kash, thank you for looking past the person and dealing with the ideas at hand. Sincerely, I'm glad we can talk about the balance

-Reduce the projectile size by 25% so its harder to connect

-Make the projectile highlighted with Alien Vision.

Its not that the GL is bad, Its just that not a lot of people use it. Handwashers use it a lot and have seen the benefits of it but I'm sure Crazycat can give some more feedback on that.

Make it easier to use so that a lot of people CAN use it at lower divs, to help lower div marine win rate.

Complaints:
-GL's are too easy to kill lifeforms (particularly Lerks). This comes down to how hard it is to dodge a grenade because it feels like the grenade is the size of a bowling ball and comes at you very quick.
-GL's do too much structure damage. Right now it does about 4% of a fully matured hive and takes 27 total grenades to kill a hive. Plus with the splash damage you can clear heavy PvE very easily.

Yes, you can add a new low skill dependent weapon or use the existing ones (GL, FT) but I don't like that idea.

"But fuck high skill play, there aren't many of you anyway"

This weapon though seems to have unique properties which we can manipulate in order to have an impact on low skill games and almost nothing on high skill games. The major mechanic that allows us to do this (I believe) is that it is a predicted projectile instead of a hitscan weapon like lmg/sg/hmg/railgun/minigun.

In the true sense of things, aliens can't directly alter their play to be able to avoid any of the hitscan weapons (I'd argue that positioning/timing/ambushing are all INDIRECT factors used to play against hitscan weapons). However, with projectiles, aliens actually have a little time to avoid the projectile (think marine vs gorge spit as well as a good comparison!) So what I want to do is, make it such that the grenade launcher is incredibly easy to use, but relatively (SKILL RELATIVE) easy to avoid.

1) GL has a larger range than SG and has splash damage thus allowing marines to shoot earlier than a SG giving them more room for error in the sense of time (speed = distance/time taken for skulk to get to you), AND if you miss directly, the splash damage should help chip the lifeform so you at least do something. THIS MAKES THE WEAPON WAY MORE FORGIVING THAN ANYTHING ELSE IN NS2 ATM, HELPING LOW SKILL PLAYERS.

Now that we have (hopefully) improved the PvP aspect for low skilled marines, I want to nerf the PvE sdmg of the GL so it is AT MOST as good as a SG at kill structures. This is because I don't want to make marines cheesy with a powerful weapon and they should still have to fight for map control. If you win the PvP with the improved weapon, you should have TIME to do sdmg, so you don't need as strong a burst.

Now these changes won't completely overpower the SG in all skill ranges BECAUSE the pdmg will be lower than a SG meaning if you can actually land your hits with the LESS FORGIVING SG, YOU DO MORE DAMAGE (HIGHER SKILL CEILING).

In true spirit of making the GL a true alternative, I also suggest that we drop the research requirement to be alongside the SG on a NORMAL armory so teams can choose between SG and GL (choosing one still means you CAN choose the other).

2) MAKE IT EASIER TO USE: Instant detonation on contact with wall/floor/ceiling/lifeform

4) MAKE IT DODGEABLE: Add a sound so you know when it's being fired (kind of helps ninja marines hiding to defend a grind gate and raping face)

5) MAKE IT DODGEABLE: Add the projectile to alien vision so that people can see it and help dodge

"But Wob, GLs are frustating for my low skill alien even if they help my low skill marine"

it doesn't affect high-skill play if we don't change it.

Wob says

This weapon though seems to have unique properties which we can manipulate in order to have an impact on low skill games and almost nothing on high skill games. The major mechanic that allows us to do this (I believe) is that it is a predicted projectile instead of a hitscan weapon like lmg/sg/hmg/railgun/minigun.

Your solution would have more impact in 'higher divisions' than in lower divisions. It'd make easier Aliens to kill a GL due to its projectile being easier to dodge ('cause predictable). And I don't see how this could help lower skilled divs when you know that Aliens are way stronger than Marines in those divisions.

Wob says

In the true sense of things, aliens can't directly alter their play to be able to avoid any of the hitscan weapons (I'd argue that positioning/timing/ambushing are all INDIRECT factors used to play against hitscan weapons). However, with projectiles, aliens actually have a little time to avoid the projectile (think marine vs gorge spit as well as a good comparison!) So what I want to do is, make it such that the grenade launcher is incredibly easy to use, but relatively (SKILL RELATIVE) easy to avoid.

Yeah, exactly. You've countered your argument of 'nerfing' Aliens in lower divisions. It'll only make them even more stronger.

wob says

1) GL has a larger range than SG and has splash damage thus allowing marines to shoot earlier than a SG giving them more room for error in the sense of time (speed = distance/time taken for skulk to get to you), AND if you miss directly, the splash damage should help chip the lifeform so you at least do something. THIS MAKES THE WEAPON WAY MORE FORGIVING THAN ANYTHING ELSE IN NS2 ATM, HELPING LOW SKILL PLAYERS.

Why would you make it more forgiving? The dude with a GL shoots, misses, dies. He hits, kills the lifeform (skulks at least). He can't do that at close range because those grenades won't explode anyway. So he'll have to master at least his weapon to do something valuable. And not a lot can use a GL properly. That's the aim of the GL as it is now. It doesn't have to be forgiving. A random Marine shouldn't be wandering on the map alone with a GL or he'll die and right now, if he does so, he'll die. As said by others, it meant to be a support weapon. At best, he'll kill some skulks, but not worth 25 Pres.

wob says

Now that we have (hopefully) improved the PvP aspect for low skilled marines, I want to nerf the PvE sdmg of the GL so it is AT MOST as good as a SG at kill structures. This is because I don't want to make marines cheesy with a powerful weapon and they should still have to fight for map control. If you win the PvP with the improved weapon, you should have TIME to do sdmg, so you don't need as strong a burst.

Again, GLs are support weapons. Its aim is different to SGs' or LMGs'. You need to upgrade your Armory first to an AA and then purchase GLs which costs a tiny bit more than Shotguns. So it has to be more efficient than Shotguns 'cause it's more expensive. It's that simple. It also makes a lot of sense to me that GLs are anti-structures weapons. They have always been meant to damage initially Aliens buildings before enemy players. However, as you can imagine, being hit with a grenade straight into your head should still deal a lot of damages. Aliens need to adapt whenever they see some Marines carrying GLs with them. You got to play differently. And I've never seen 5 Marines in the same time all using GLs. That would be stupid and only makes them lose. It is quite effective with LMGs or SGs in addition to those, nothing more.

wob says

Now these changes won't completely overpower the SG in all skill ranges BECAUSE the pdmg will be lower than a SG meaning if you can actually land your hits with the LESS FORGIVING SG, YOU DO MORE DAMAGE (HIGHER SKILL CEILING).

Indeed, but it will just reduce the small piece of interest left when it comes to GLs. No one really uses them right now (beside a few teams) and I don't see how your changes will be of any help. SG is a lifeform killer because it's easier to master and also cheaper, for both Commander and field players. GL is a really nice weapon and yet, not that used. More expensive and tougher to master. But once you got it right, it's as powerful as SGs but in long range (so not the same purpose). Handwashers is a good example of that. They did manage in the past very well with GLs but I don't recall them being OP.

wob says

In true spirit of making the GL a true alternative, I also suggest that we drop the research requirement to be alongside the SG on a NORMAL armory so teams can choose between SG and GL (choosing one still means you CAN choose the other).

That, I guess, comes with your proposal because it'd be completely pointless otherwise. It can actually be done but it would demand to change the current meta of that weapon. Which is not broken at the moment. So except if you're for 'new changes for new changes', I'd say no. You should only modify things that aren't balanced, or too much of a problem. GLs aren't in my opinion.

wob says

2) MAKE IT EASIER TO USE: Instant detonation on contact with wall/floor/ceiling/lifeform

Appropriate for rockets, but it still remains a Grenades Launcher. And to be honest, I don't see this improving the winrates in low divisions. It will only make things less clear to new players or those wanting to watch some competitive games.

Doable or not, it'll be unfair for the ones not using AV. And I'm not sure you want to force them to switch to use some AV. Too bad for you, you could have seen those projectiles if you had enabled the AV.

wob says

"But Wob, GLs are frustating for my low skill alien even if they help my low skill marine"

Because it'll only make a broken weapon. Not more efficient for Marines, I'm afraid. It will not in any case help decrease the current winrates in low divs.

it doesn't affect high-skill play if we don't change it.

But it does affect high-skill play if you change it.

So basically, none of those changes will help in regard to the low divs winrates. In my opinion, it would only make Aliens more powerful. You shouldn't touch GLs or not with those proposals. As Yalu stated, GLs are fine as they are, people just don't use them. And changing a weapon already fine only to push people to use it by claiming: 'it's new, go try!' is stupid.

About spams, I think we're talking about competitive play. GLs are for sure an issue in public, on larger servers but you never notice spams on 6 vs. 6 with only 5 players on the field. Because, anyway, let's admit 5 players use GLs in the same lapse of time, that'd only cause their death. And leave the Aliens to win freely.

tldr: no need for changes - or if so, real changes such as minor tweaks. Not for the sake of changing.

Just gonna point out that I think its unfair to say the changes make it a "PvP weapon" for even low div Marines. If you can't hold a lane with it on your own, it shouldn't be considered PvP. To be a PvP weapon, you need to be able to take on 2 skulks at a time, or win a fight vs a Lerk or a Fade solo, and that's not going to ever happen with a GL or RL. You will always need a teammate with you to effectively use the GL in any form.

Now that we have (hopefully) improved the PvP aspect for low skilled marines, I want to nerf the PvE sdmg of the GL so it is AT MOST as good as a SG at kill structures. This is because I don't want to make marines cheesy with a powerful weapon and they should still have to fight for map control. If you win the PvP with the improved weapon, you should have TIME to do sdmg, so you don't need as strong a burst.

Don't take my toys!

I am much more concerned with more and more and more changes making the comp game different from vanilla.